SEC Player of the Year Discussion

[InstiGATOR1]

An interesting blog and twitter exchange. First Katz posts this:

Meanwhile, Ole Miss' Marshall Henderson, who scored 28 points in a win over Tennessee on Thursday, is averaging 18.9 points a game and may be the leader in the clubhouse for SEC player of the year, as the Rebels are in a tussle with Florida for the SEC regular-season title.

at the bottom of this column:

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/73929/3-point-shot-vcu-richmond-heats-up

The Gasaway tweets a link to it having this conversation:

John Gasaway ‏@JohnGasaway
I like Marshall Henderson too, but there are 2 if not 3 Gators I'd rank above him for SEC POY.

Ricky Bishop ‏@TheRickyBishop
@JohnGasaway @espnandykatz I think he shot a few too many hurried 3's when rebels already had lead. Could have shot vols back into game.


12m John Gasaway ‏@JohnGasaway
@TheRickyBishop @ESPNAndyKatz Agree. Shooting just 32% on 3s in SEC but launching 11 (!) per game. Kennedy's on-board I guess, but, man.

and then Gasaway follows up with this tweet:

John Gasaway ‏@JohnGasaway
Can't explain why overlooking Florida for SEC POY has been systemic. One winner in almost 50 years (Chandler Parsons). Odd.

[gatorbogey]

took a long while for donovan to get coach of the year too

[maleko83]

took a long while for donovan to get coach of the year too

This, to me, is the much bigger oversight. Thinking back through the Donovan coached teams, there's never a team where one player has really stood out and had those spectacular numbers that would warrant POY consideration. Which is all the more support for Donovan being coach of the year at least 4 or 5 times by now. Really unbelievable. I mean, Kevin Stallings winning it in 2006-07? What a joke.

[REM08]

Its hard to even discuss this before first agreeing who the award should go to. Should it be the best player on the best team? The "most valuable"? - and how do you even determine this? Maybe the most productive/best numbers?

I dont' think there's a "right" way to do this, and think different voters do it differently. My thinking on this has always been simply the best player. If we were picking teams playground style (for a college game happening right now - not a future career/nba draft thing) and all SEC players were available, who would be picked first? Who's that one guy that is going to best impact your teams chances of winning. If the award is going to be called POY, then I think this is how it should be done. Some years this would be easy, others not. Also, I'd go with SEC stats, not season ones.

[InstiGATOR1]

Its hard to even discuss this before first agreeing who the award should go to. Should it be the best player on the best team? The "most valuable"? - and how do you even determine this? Maybe the most productive/best numbers?

I dont' think there's a "right" way to do this, and think different voters do it differently. My thinking on this has always been simply the best player. If we were picking teams playground style (for a college game happening right now - not a future career/nba draft thing) and all SEC players were available, who would be picked first? Who's that one guy that is going to best impact your teams chances of winning. If the award is going to be called POY, then I think this is how it should be done. Some years this would be easy, others not. Also, I'd go with SEC stats, not season ones.

This is sort of irrelevant to the point Gasaway was making. It is odd ex-post that given the number of:

1. UF championship or near championship teams

2. UF high draft picks dating at least back to Walk

that UF has been seemingly systematically ignored in this award.

[themistocles]

Good points REM.

Good points Insti.

To me, it also is the Donovan phenomenon that suggests bias rather than the POY, for the simple reason that Billy D's teams tend to "spread it around" whereas many teams (e.g. Ole Miss, Tex A&M, etc.) are very dependent on a specific player for performance.

However, going back to Walk, or even Keller does make it a rather interesting issue.

Personally, I think it reflects nothing other than jealousy regarding GatorAid.

[BEH]

Good points REM.

Good points Insti.

To me, it also is the Donovan phenomenon that suggests bias rather than the POY, for the simple reason that Billy D's teams tend to "spread it around" whereas many teams (e.g. Ole Miss, Tex A&M, etc.) are very dependent on a specific player for performance.

However, going back to Walk, or even Keller does make it a rather interesting issue.

Personally, I think it reflects nothing other than jealousy regarding GatorAid.

Are you really saying that Neal Walk was better than Pistol Pete or Dan Issel? Walk was good but he had some competition in the SEC. Walk did get Florida to it's first NIT, but he sure was not close to being the SEC POY, bias or no bias.

[tampajack1]

Are you really saying that Neal Walk was better than Pistol Pete or Dan Issel? Walk was good but he had some competition in the SEC. Walk did get Florida to it's first NIT, but he sure was not close to being the SEC POY, bias or no bias.

Walk averaged about 27 PPG and 20 RPG in his junior year at UF and slightly less as a senior. He was selected 2nd in the NBA draft behind Alcindor in 1969. Certainly Maravich was going to win POY's averaging what he did at LSU, but it is not wacky to argue that Walk deserved to be considered for POY while at UF in both his junior and senior years.

[InstiGATOR1]

Are you really saying that Neal Walk was better than Pistol Pete or Dan Issel? Walk was good but he had some competition in the SEC. Walk did get Florida to it's first NIT, but he sure was not close to being the SEC POY, bias or no bias.

If you want the best college player who is helping his team, I am less convinced by the Maravich argument. I think a case can be made for Walk over Issel.

As for the NIT, that his a cheap shot taking advantage of the younger people here who do not know that the second best team in each league went to the NIT in those days. I suspect you know that and should have done better in that case.

[GatorLurker]

Neal Walk was totally awesome, but Maravich was the GOAT in college hoops. It just sucked for him to be in the same league.

This year I might give serious consideration to N Noel as MVP. Just think about how terrible UK would be without his D.

[InstiGATOR1]

Neal Walk was totally awesome, but Maravich was the GOAT in college hoops. It just sucked for him to be in the same league.

This year I might give serious consideration to N Noel as MVP. Just think about how terrible UK would be without his D.

Maravich scored a whole bunch of points. On the other hand when you go to college to play for your daddy so you can score a whole bunch of points, that is what you will do usually.

Would he have taken all the shots he did playing for a real college coach on a real college team? I wonder.

[GatorPlanet]

SEC POY is usually about stats, and BD's teams try to spread the ball around. We won't usually have the POY.

I got to watch Ole Miss last night for the first time. Very good team there. I have absolutely no problem with Henderson winning the POY. The guy can flat out play. I'm looking forward to Scottie guarding him.

[gator7_5]

If you want the best college player who is helping his team, I am less convinced by the Maravich argument. I think a case can be made for Walk over Issel.

As for the NIT, that his a cheap shot taking advantage of the younger people here who do not know that the second best team in each league went to the NIT in those days. I suspect you know that and should have done better in that case.
That d+++head knew better, but he just can't help himself.

When I think of BEH, I picture Old Man Potter.

[GatorLurker]

Maravich scored a whole bunch of points. On the other hand when you go to college to play for your daddy so you can score a whole bunch of points, that is what you will do usually.

Would he have taken all the shots he did playing for a real college coach on a real college team? I wonder.

Daddy got the gig because of his son, not the other way around.

[ufgator4ever]

Who cares about great players. Give me great teams.

[jsc28]

If you want to score 25-30 a night, and shoot all the shots, best of luck to you. You may get some accolades, but you won't fit in here.

[BA69MA72]

Wasn't Walk a few years before Pete?

[gatorbogey]

Who cares about great players. Give me great teams.

now we're talkin'!!

[regurgigator]

My thinking on this has always been simply the best player. If we were picking teams playground style (for a college game happening right now - not a future career/nba draft thing) and all SEC players were available, who would be picked first? Who's that one guy that is going to best impact your teams chances of winning. If the award is going to be called POY, then I think this is how it should be done. Some years this would be easy, others not.

That's how I view it. I have no problem with the concept that the best player in the league could be on the worst team in the league.

I haven't even seen Henderson play so I don't have much right to evaluate him, but I'm not always impressed by high-scoring/high-volume shooters.

Although I don't recall who won it during our championship years, I do think both Noah and Horford deserved strong consideration. I could see picking either of those guys first in a hypothetical SEC draft during those years.

[GothamGator]

Henderson is the "leader in the clubhouse"??? So, if he doesn't play another game this year he can win the award?

Here is a link to the conference-only stats. Very useful for this discussion. It's still very early.

[GothamGator]

Maravich won the award all three years he played for the varsity. Neal Walk was a year ahead of Maravich, so Neal's junior year, when Walk averaged 26.5 points and 19.8 rebounds was the same as Pete's first varsity year, when he averaged 43.8 and 7.5.

[GatorPlanet]

Maravich wasn't just all about scoring. He was an incredible passer, too. If you weren't ready, he'd hit you in the head with a pass when you least expected it. Dude could thread the needle.

[gatorbogey]

judging by conference poy winners you'd conclude that UF has almost zero history in the sport

1 winner since they started giving out the award in the early 60's. even tennessee has 11 winners, vandy w/ 8.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Conference_Men's_Basketball_Player_of _the_Year

seems like many years it's the best player on the best team. of course, when the gators have the best team in the friggin nation, not just the conf, the award goes to someone else. i guess, finally, maybe out of mercy, parsons finally gets it for UF...

[BEH]

judging by conference poy winners you'd conclude that UF has almost zero history in the sport

1 winner since they started giving out the award in the early 60's. even tennessee has 11 winners, vandy w/ 8.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Conference_Men's_Basketball_Player_of _the_Year

seems like many years it's the best player on the best team. of course, when the gators have the best team in the friggin nation, not just the conf, the award goes to someone else. i guess, finally, maybe out of mercy, parsons finally gets it for UF...I look at that list and it is hard to argue over those great players; however, I agree the selections in '06 & '07 do seem incredibly weak when you look at Brewer, Horford and Noah.

[HALLGATOR]

Henderson is the "leader in the clubhouse"??? So, if he doesn't play another game this year he can win the award?

Here is a link to the conference-only stats. Very useful for this discussion. It's still very early.

You left out the link Gotham. (-:

[InstiGATOR1]

Maravich wasn't just all about scoring. He was an incredible passer, too. If you weren't ready, he'd hit you in the head with a pass when you least expected it. Dude could thread the needle.

Actually he was a flashy passer. I actually saw tv games of his in college and not one time in the games I saw did he do any sewing.

He was not the kind of player that UF fans during the Donovan era would think was wonderful. He was a gunner playing for his daddy and had he not been playing for his daddy he likely would been a better player with more ordinary stats on a better team.

[madgator]

If Jason Williams had finished out the year, he possibly would've won over Sesay in 1998.

Udonis should've won over Dudley in 2002


you could've made a case for Horford in 2007.

[InstiGATOR1]

You left out the link Gotham. (-:

Here is the link:

http://www.secdigitalnetwork.com/Portals/3/SEC%20Website/menshoops/2013%20Stats/CONFONLY.HTM#conf.wki

Henderson is making 32.1% of his 3s.

[BEH]

Here is the link:

http://www.secdigitalnetwork.com/Portals/3/SEC%20Website/menshoops/2013%20Stats/CONFONLY.HTM#conf.wki

Henderson is making 32.1% of his 3s.Which is not very good. But apparently that is what the coach wants.

[InstiGATOR1]

Which is not very good. But apparently that is what the coach wants.

All I know is that if Boynton were taking 11+ 3 pointers a game and making that low a percentage, POY would not be a discription we would ever read about him. Still Henderson is leading the league in scoring and his team is one of the surprises in the SEC this year, so that is how it goes.

[TampaGatorFan]

Who cares about great players. Give me great teams.

^ this

Great TEAMS win championships.

[GatorLurker]

^ this

Great TEAMS win championships.

Larry Bird almost won one by himself.

But it took an equally great player (Magic) with a pretty good supporting cast to beat him.

[TampaGatorFan]

Larry Bird almost won one by himself.

But it took an equally great player (Magic) with a pretty good supporting cast to beat him.

Ahhh...SHOWTIME!!!

[GatorLurker]

Ahhh...SHOWTIME!!!

James Worthy was NOT in the game. :^)

[TampaGatorFan]

James Worthy was NOT in the game. :^)

You said Magic, though. ;-)

[GatorLurker]

You said Magic, though. ;-)

Yes, I did.

Every player today should give 5% of their salary to both Magic and Larry. Without those two guys it would have been hard to market the league into what it is now. It would be more like the NHL is today without those two guys.

[madgator]

Yes, I did.

Every player today should give 5% of their salary to both Magic and Larry. Without those two guys it would have been hard to market the league into what it is now. It would be more like the NHL is today without those two guys.



eh....hog wash!

I'm as big a Magic Johnson fan as it gets. But the NBA is where it is because of Michael Jordan, David Stern, and David Falk.

in that order

NBA was still without a national TV contract that wasn't on tape delay all through the '85 with Bird and Magic around for 6-7 years.

CBS game of the week didn't come around until 1985 and the ratings were poor to fair at best although they improved through the late '80s as the NBA got better at their marketing by promoting marquee names and teams.

the NBC didn't start showing the Saturday game of the week until 1990. which is when it REALLY took off.

and that was all because of Jordan, Jordan and Jordan. Bird was already done by 1990 and Magic had his AIDS in before the 1992 season.

btw, John Tesh gets some credit with NBA success. EVERYONE knows and gets a little pumped for some 'Roundball Rock.'

another under-rated factor in the NBA increase in popularity is the Knicks becoming relevent again in the late '80s with Ewing.

[gatorbogey]

i don't know, i would watch the lakers celtics games alot - bird/magic got me hooked in my youth. that was coast to coast across the country interest. set the foundation for the tv contracts and for MJ to take it to the next level. actually after that, i lost all interest...all interest. but bird/magic goes back to the ncaa's....watching that game was BIG and that carried over to the nba and alot of fans followed along.

[tommyuf21]

Larry Bird almost won one by himself.

But it took an equally great player (Magic) with a pretty good supporting cast to beat him.

Greg Kelser and Jay Vincent were both drafted and had decent NBA careers.

[madgator]

i don't know, i would watch the lakers celtics games alot - bird/magic got me hooked in my youth. that was coast to coast across the country interest. set the foundation for the tv contracts and for MJ to take it to the next level. actually after that, i lost all interest...all interest. but bird/magic goes back to the ncaa's....watching that game was BIG and that carried over to the nba and alot of fans followed along.

the problem with that time period is that if it wasn't Lakers/Celtics, the ratings were poor. They were improving over the late '80s no doubt but things really didn't take off for the NBA until after the 1989 season.

if you want to say that Magic/Bird at least brought some kind of interest back to the NBA, fine I can't dispute that. However, to say that those guys brought the NBA into the prime time national spotlight for the league as a whole, it just isn't true.

The NBA really started to get a wider audience once the Knicks started to become relevent again and the marketing and public reception of Michael Jordan really started to take off around 87-88 and then just went to new heights starting in 89-90

[BEH]

Yes, I did.

Every player today should give 5% of their salary to both Magic and Larry. Without those two guys it would have been hard to market the league into what it is now. It would be more like the NHL is today without those two guys.

You are showing your age. Many before those two were far better an had a bigger impact on the game. Try Bill Russell. Try Hondo.

[HALLGATOR]

You are showing your age. Many before those two were far better an had a bigger impact on the game. Try Bill Russell. Try Hondo.

"Far better?"

[HALLGATOR]

There is no way to discount what Bird, Johnson and many others brought to the game during that period. I recall people talking about pro basketball that I had never heard mutter a word about before. All of a sudden the Lakers, Celtics and even the Pistons were being talked about. I don't know, without checking, what the ratings were during those times but their contributions to the popularity of professional basketball during their playing careers was considerable.

[madgator]

There is no way to discount what Bird, Johnson and many others brought to the game during that period. I recall people talking about pro basketball that I had never heard mutter a word about before. All of a sudden the Lakers, Celtics and even the Pistons were being talked about. I don't know, without checking, what the ratings were during those times but their contributions to the popularity of professional basketball during their playing careers was considerable.

not discounting

BUT

Bird and Magic got your ears buzzing

Jordan got you watching!


THAT is the difference

[HALLGATOR]

not discounting

BUT

Bird and Magic got your ears buzzing

Jordan got you watching!


THAT is the difference

Perhaps overall but I was watching before Jordan gained the fame he did with the Bulls.

[madgator]

Perhaps overall but I was watching before Jordan gained the fame he did with the Bulls.

fair enough. I just remember those days very vividly. The NBA didn't REALLY take off until very late in the '80s.

did it increase in popularity from the duldrums of the days of the late '70s? Sure. But honestly it really couldn't get any lower.

perhaps Bird/Magic got the NBA off a flat line standard to up and being able to walk again. But Jordan and the overall new marketing standard of the league took the NBA to a whole other level.

[GothamGator]

I still remember having to stay up late to watch Game 6 of the 1980 NBA Final between the Lakers and my beloved Sixers. This was because it was shown on tape delay hours after the game was over.

And this was for the classic game where Johnson started at center because Jabbar was hurt and proceeded to light up Philly for 40+ points. One of the all time classic NBA games, but nobody could see it live.

Within a couple of years, however, there were plenty of games on TV. A lot were on TBS and others on CBS. I can still remember them using the Clash as intro music to the broadcasts.

The NBA's ascendance came as much because of a greater volume of channels than anything else. Suddenly, a lot of games could be seen on cable, and that grew the audience.

[GothamGator]

Here is the link:

http://www.secdigitalnetwork.com/Portals/3/SEC%20Website/menshoops/2013%20Stats/CONFONLY.HTM#conf.wki

Henderson is making 32.1% of his 3s.

Great stuff, thanks for having my back.

Man, look at those team stats. They're amazing.

Florida leads the league in:
- scoring offense
- scoring defense
- scoring margin
- FG%
- FG% defense
- 3P FG%
- 3-pointers made
- rebounding margin
- def rebound %
- assists
- assist/turnover ratio

Florida is 2nd in the league in:
- 3-point FG% defense
- turnover margin

[GothamGator]

You could make a good argument for Vernon Maxwell in 1988 over that insufferable stiff Will Perdue. Max averaged 20.2 points, 4.2 boards and 4.3 assists. Perdue averaged 18.2 points and 10.4 boards. He was also an insufferable jerk who famously tried to bait Dwayne Schintzius into a fight (Big D declined).

[patsyruth2008]

I still remember having to stay up late to watch Game 6 of the 1980 NBA Final between the Lakers and my beloved Sixers. This was because it was shown on tape delay hours after the game was over.

And this was for the classic game where Johnson started at center because Jabbar was hurt and proceeded to light up Philly for 40+ points. One of the all time classic NBA games, but nobody could see it live.

Within a couple of years, however, there were plenty of games on TV. A lot were on TBS and others on CBS. I can still remember them using the Clash as intro music to the broadcasts.

The NBA's ascendance came as much because of a greater volume of channels than anything else. Suddenly, a lot of games could be seen on cable, and that grew the audience.

Gotham;

I was a Senior at Florida that year (and a huge Lakers and Magic fan) and remember that game well. We had a bunch of guys in the fraternity stay away from all TV's, Radios and people for that entire day so we could watch the game that night without knowing the outcome.

Magic was on fire and the Lakers had a huge lead going into the fourth quarter, but Philadelphia started a massive comback in the fourth and had cut the lead to like 3-4 points with a couple of minutes left.

They went to a TV timeout and my girl friend (now my wife) walked into the TV room and wanted to know why I was not ready for our date that night. I ran up and apologized for being late, but explained what was going on and begged her to just give me a couple more minutes so I could finish watching. She looked me dead in the eye and said........................

"Oh, don't worry the Lakers won".............

The whole room went nuts and started cuzzing me and a screamed at her for doing something SO stupid............... She left the room and needless to say, we did not go out that night and I was "cut off" for a couple of weeks.