Business Fleeing California???

[GatorAbe7]

In honor of Phil Mickelson and the two +100 post threads we have simultaneously going on the topic I ran an amateur check as to whether Mickelson is merely the canary in the coal mine, as another poster put it, and give a look as to whether California is suffering a mass business Exodus.

Turns out that as soon as you type "business l" Google immediately fills in "business leaving california." The latest news article (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/23/california-residents-businesses-consider-bailing-on-golden-state-over-taxes/) discusses specific business owners looking to leave the state in part due to being villianized over their higher earnings: Another North County San Diego resident, whose home is currently for sale, told Fox News he estimates he and his wife will save $30,000 a month by moving to Arizona. He said it's not that he is against paying his fair share, but more than 50 percent of state residents pay no personal income taxes at all, and that, he said, is "unfair".

In 2011, (http://www.ocregister.com/articles/moved-342887-companies-texas.html) 254 California companies moved some or all of their work and jobs out of state, 26% more than in 2010, according to Irvine business consultant Joe Vranich who has been tracking these departures since 2009.

Articles disputing the apparent business exodus phenom are mostly dated from the last decade.

Looks like the money makers are leaving California to the takers.

[gatordowneast]

CA will become the le land of the rich, (High Tech millionaires, movie stars), state employee retirees (as long as the pension fund doesn't default) and poor (devouring state revenues). Working class being eased out and those who can live and work elsewhere with higher incomes are easing out voluntarily.

[wygator]

2010 Census Data had a net negative migration for California of 93,000 people. I'd say that's likely to be increasing. Largest numbers moved to Texas, Nevada, Arizona and Washington.

Interesting graphic here (http://www.census.gov/dataviz/visualizations/028/)

[Dreamliner]

I'm pretty sure that 2012 saw a net positive migration for the first time in five years. And immigration from Mexico is down, probably because the economy sucks so bad.

[surfn1080]

But higher taxes don't scare off businesses....

[Dreamliner]

California is probably not a bad place to move to if you're poor. Ex: the state legislature passed a law, in 2011, that prohibits auto insurers from charging more than $350 ANNUALLY for people with satisfactory driving records who make no more than 250% above poverty level. That works out to just under 28K. They also have stringent rent controls.

[wygator]

I'm pretty sure that 2012 saw a net positive migration for the first time in five years. And immigration from Mexico is down, probably because the economy sucks so bad.

Data?

[Gatormb]

I'm pretty sure that 2012 saw a net positive migration for the first time in five years. And immigration from Mexico is down, probably because the economy sucks so bad.

Give it some time my friend. Be honest when your consult fee goes up.:yes:

[mastoidbone]

CA is faced with major problems----it is a GREAT state if you are super rich (VC, private equity, Facebook, googl, etc), it is a way for STATE workers to get pensions worth more then 1 million by age 50, and a great place to be poor---massive aid for poorer.

What it is NOT a great place is for middle class private workers----i have had no less then 6 couple friends leave---because making about 90,000 a year---they could not afford a house and public schools in CA are very bad----so they have left for AZ, NC, TX, and OR.

So population shows fewer and fewer working middle class---and more and more poor who dont pay taxes....meaning more pressure in future on public pensions.....which are 500-750 BILLION underfunded....

[Dreamliner]

Data?

Read it in USA Today a few weeks ago. It could have been 2011. Why the skepticism ? I believe that California is a fiscal nightmare and I'm moving there.

[Dreamliner]

Give it some time my friend. Be honest when your consult fee goes up.:yes:

Oh, listen, my sister lives in LA and she says I could double my Orlando-fees and Angelenos will think I'm bargain basement.

[Dreamliner]

I do know Californians who say they're basically living hand-to-mouth, but would not want to live anywhere else.

[wygator]

Read it in USA Today a few weeks ago. It could have been 2011. Why the skepticism ? I believe that California is a fiscal nightmare and I'm moving there.

It could well be true. But I'm a little skeptical because that kind of detailed demographic and migration data isn't usually available just as a year ends.

In addition, we have a bit of a tradition her of providing links to statistical claims when possible. My citation was linked from the US Census, probably the definitive source on the subject.

[Dreamliner]

I'll be in LA, Sun-Wed, and will bring back a report.

[wygator]

I'll be in LA, Sun-Wed, and will bring back a report.

Enjoy... I would love to visit LA during the Wyoming winter!!!!

[Dreamliner]

Posting from the Hotel Huntley on Santa Monica Beach. It's a bracing 48 degrees right now. Looking out our 8th floor window reminds me of Waikiki Beach with all the palm trees and with the Malibu Mountains rising over the ocean.

FYI: I've already found a cheap, one-bedroom apartment in Pasadena. And looks like my auto insurance will not exceed $350 annually. So, even poor folks can make it out here.

BTW, the prevailing attitude out here, as far as I can tell, is one of distinct optimism. Ex: my sister is a graphic design artist and her business is really picking up. Her partner is doing well too.

People seem very happy out here.

Parking can be an issue. Seems like every establishment has valet. My wife and I are paying $33 a day for valet, at our hotel. And that's excluding tips. On the other hand, I parked my car downtown for $4 all day.

[Dreamliner]

Aside: I think it's interesting that this impossibly chic hotel in Santa Monica has a Gideons Bible.

[wygator]

Aside: I think it's interesting that this impossibly chic hotel in Santa Monica has a Gideons Bible.

"Gideon was out, he left it no doubt..."

[Dreamliner]

Update: found a cheap place to live in Pasadena. Auto insurance will be no more than $350 annually. Health insurance will probably be a little over $100 a month. Gas is surprisingly not much higher. Groceries are maybe slightly higher than in Florida. No shortage of cheap eats and thrift shops are profuse.

Yes, the area is vastly more huge than Orlando, so I may be spending more money on gas overall. Ex: I had a rental car and it took me all day to drive from Santa Monica, to downtown, up to Pasadena, down Sunset Blvd to the ocean, up to Malibu, then back to Santa Monica.

On the other hand, rail and bus is quite extensive and their monthly passes are cheap. I'll have to play this by ear.

One thing on the docket is to invest in a good pair of hiking shoes so I can hike in the San Gabriel Mountains weekends. I can see the mountains from my bathroom window.

[gatorev12]

^best of luck to you as you start this new endeavor

[Dreamliner]

^best of luck to you as you start this new endeavor

Thanks, rev.

[adamgator96]

Update: found a cheap place to live in Pasadena. Auto insurance will be no more than $350 annually. Health insurance will probably be a little over $100 a month. Gas is surprisingly not much higher. Groceries are maybe slightly higher than in Florida. No shortage of cheap eats and thrift shops are profuse.

Yes, the area is vastly more huge than Orlando, so I may be spending more money on gas overall. Ex: I had a rental car and it took me all day to drive from Santa Monica, to downtown, up to Pasadena, down Sunset Blvd to the ocean, up to Malibu, then back to Santa Monica.

On the other hand, rail and bus is quite extensive and their monthly passes are cheap. I'll have to play this by ear.

One thing on the docket is to invest in a good pair of hiking shoes so I can hike in the San Gabriel Mountains weekends. I can see the mountains from my bathroom window.

Dream - groceries are much more expensive than Florida. If you haven't noticed yet, then good on ya. A can of Le Seuer peas is $2.69 at Ralph's or Gelsons. It's at least a dollar cheaper in FL. Can't understand why it's WIC approved considering other brand cost 69 cents. Eggs, bread, milk, meat...Clausen pickles...all are much more expensive.

And you'll easily pay 30-50 cents more per gallon of gas depending on where you buy it, so you have to pay attention.

It is a gorgeous day today, though, so it'd be worth the gas money to get out and explore.

[Gatorrick22]

2010 Census Data had a net negative migration for California of 93,000 people. I'd say that's likely to be increasing. Largest numbers moved to Texas, Nevada, Arizona and Washington.

Interesting graphic here (http://www.census.gov/dataviz/visualizations/028/)

Excellent info wygator. Thanks for posting it. Florida is gaining too.

[Dreamliner]

Dream - groceries are much more expensive than Florida. If you haven't noticed yet, then good on ya. A can of Le Seuer peas is $2.69 at Ralph's or Gelsons. It's at least a dollar cheaper in FL. Can't understand why it's WIC approved considering other brand cost 69 cents. Eggs, bread, milk, meat...Clausen pickles...all are much more expensive.

And you'll easily pay 30-50 cents more per gallon of gas depending on where you buy it, so you have to pay attention.

It is a gorgeous day today, though, so it'd be worth the gas money to get out and explore.

Thanks, gas is about $3.40 in Orlando, around $3.80 in LA. And I did see $3.75 here and there.

Thing is, I can save about a dollar a day driving around Orlando ... and I see Orlando.

But I guess I didn't notice a pronounced difference in food prices, at least not in the foods I typically buy. Maybe it's good that I'm not a milk drinker.

Certainly I would have expected a city much larger than Orlando to have generally higher prices. I guess I was prepared for a larger disparity in prices than I appeared to find.

Ex: I parked all day, in downtown LA, for $4. I couldn't do that in Orlando. Next day I parked in a very swish garage, in downtown Pasadena, that was free for two hours. I then bought a cup of really good coffee, with a really good oatmeal-raisin cookie, for under $3, went to a really nice park and read the free local newspaper.

I suppose it greatly helps that I am a man with perhaps unusually simple tastes. What I just described is me partying.

The one thing I found annoying was the profusion of valet parking. It's everywhere. It's like a jobs program.

[Gatorrick22]

Dreamliner, did you move out there or are you just visiting/vacationing.

[Swampmaster]

if you really like living in california (san diego, LA, SF, etc.) not many will pack up and move just because of a tax.

[Dreamliner]

Dreamliner, did you move out there or are you just visiting/vacationing.

Just got back from a scouting trip. Will likely more there in 4-6 weeks.

[Dreamliner]

Cost Comparison LA vs. Orlando:

Gas: higher

Groceries: higher

Public transit: same

Parking: same (except for valet)

Restaurants: same

Coffee: same

Sunday newspaper: same

health insurance: cheaper

auto insurance: cheaper

income vs. rent: starting weekly income for temporary job is quite modest, but exceeds monthly rent. Being the cheapskate that I am, I may be able to quickly establish fixed expenses at no more than 50% of income.

fitness business: this is the longer-term goal and there are no guarantees, but my sister is a marketing consultant and maintains that I should be able to easily double my Orlando rates.

Bottom-line: for me, LA appears to offer much more promise than Orlando. Yes, I may be slightly atypical, but nonetheless an example of why people move to California. it helps that I'm probably closer to a Mexican than a Gringo in terms of what I need to be happy. Also, it helps that my sister is going to assist me with my marketing needs for free.

[Dreamliner]

if you really like living in california (san diego, LA, SF, etc.) not many will pack up and move just because of a tax.

This is key. I can already understand why people put up with untold aggravations to live here. I just mentioned that I will be able to see snow-capped mountains from my bathroom window and hear parrots flying overhead.

[Dreamliner]

Weekend entertainment options:

(A) Saturday: take my dogs thirty minutes drive to the beach or take my dogs thirty minutes drive to mountains.

(B) Sunday: park downtown for free, buy coffee, oatmeal cookie and newspaper for under $5 and read newspaper in park. Or stay in cafe and post on Gator Country after having read newspaper. Then go home and get pummeled by dogs. Then take them outside and train them not to eat my neighbors free-ranging chickens.

Day trips:

Mexico, San Francisco, San Diego, Las Vegas, Big Sur, 14,000+ foot mountains, Death Valley, Joshua Tree National Park, Redwoods, take ferry to Catalina Island, mountain hiking, etc.

Over-nighters: Grand Canyon, Hoover Dam, Area 51, etc.

Short vacation: take train up coast to Canada. Neighbors are bigtime dog-lovers and will babysit my dogs.

[Dreamliner]

Further observation: spending a few days in LA my reaction was not so much "Wow! Look at all the Hispanics!", probably because there are so many in Orlando. Rather, my reaction was like "Wow! Look at all the Asians!"