Why is there anger when people leave a state for tax reasons???

[GatorAbe7]

Or at least boldly state their plans to leave a state because the taxes are terrible?

Phil Mickelson is tonight apologizing for making it clear that he plans to leave California for Texas in order to relieve himself of California's awful taxes.

The debate isn't whether California's taxes are in fact worse than those of Texas. People are acting as if Mickelson owes it to everybody to incur California's smothering taxes? Why? Is this really how deep seeded the fairness doctrine has become? That you have to check the political-correctness of anything you do with your money? Does it really need to be stated that just because it seems "fair" it doesn't mean it will work?

No wonder the few people I know who are wealthy keep quiet about it.

[QGator2414]

Envy!

[108]

do what you want, but a millionaire shouldn't expect to get any love by being vocal about it

[g8orbill]

only because of envy on y'alls part

[Gatoragman]

All you folks who said he was whining and that he was a p..sy, now you can call him that for apologizing

[wgbgator]

I doubt there would be any anger if he just did it, instead of talking about in public or in the media.

[Gatoragman]

I could care less what any athletes, Hollywood types, stars, etc... say or believe but when they say something stand behind it or shut the hell up to begin with

[g8orbill]

I fail to see why it should bother anyone if someone famous speaks up about the punitive tax code- you libs seem to have no problem when some rich hollywood type speaks up about the environment or other liberal causes-tells me that class envy is alive and well on too hot

and 108 in my not so humble opinion-you sir are leading the pack

[108]

only because of envy on y'alls part

who is "y'all" here? I don't see it saying "liberals"

some people don't want to hear about a millionaire athlete bitching about his taxes being too high, especially when most of the people who pay for their inflated salaries indirectly, don't have the option of just moving out of a state whenever they'd like

[wgbgator]

I fail to see why it should bother anyone if someone famous speaks up about the punitive tax code- you libs seem to have no problem when some rich hollywood type speaks up about the environment or other liberal causes-tells me that class envy is alive and well on too hot

and 108 in my not so humble opinion-you sir are leading the pack

Yeah it probably doesnt bother you when people publically make statements you agree with. In turn, I doubt you are applauding Hollywood types when they speak about something in public. I mean, there's a whole conservative cottage industry in getting pissed off about it:

http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood

[MichiGator2002]

do what you want, but a millionaire shouldn't expect to get any love by being vocal about it

Being vocal about it does however possibly give a nice visual aid for how the increase is in his case going to cost CA money. I mean, when a kid burns himself on a stove, we don't apologize for pointing out it was the stove that was hot and not some unknown, unidentifiable mystery.

[g8orbill]

who is "y'all" here? I don't see it saying "liberals"

some people don't want to hear about a millionaire athlete bitching about his taxes being too high, especially when most of the people who pay for their inflated salaries indirectly, don't have the option of just moving out of a state whenever they'd like

you are a liberal based solely on what you post

[gator10010]

So the rich really do relocate if they are taxed too much .....well I'll be....who would have ever thought?

[108]

I fail to see why it should bother anyone if someone famous speaks up about the punitive tax code- you libs seem to have no problem when some rich hollywood type speaks up about the environment or other liberal causes-tells me that class envy is alive and well on too hot

and 108 in my not so humble opinion-you sir are leading the pack

personally i could give a chit what Mickelson feels, but if you are asking why, then im giving you the answer

in my not so humble opinion, this "envy" accusation is often used when one doesn't want, or can't use critical thinking

[108]

you are a liberal based solely on what you post

this story isn't about me Bill, i'm just responding to the question asked

you have no idea who personally made a stink, or what their political affiliation is

[g8orbill]

108-my comments are strictly about those on this board who have had a conniption fit

[QGator2414]

I doubt there would be any anger if he just did it, instead of talking about in public or in the media.

I agree. It is the sad reality of envy.

Yet I think it is important to inform people of reality...

[108]

108-my comments are strictly about those on this board who have had a conniption fit

im guessing you think this is part of that :roll:

do what you want, but a millionaire shouldn't expect to get any love by being vocal about it

[oragator1]

He apologized because:

A- he sponsors products and his clients don't want him dipping in political waters.
B- because as he eloquently said today, many of his fans who can't find work or are underemployed living paycheck to paycheck and he doesn't want to alienate them.

If you are going to do it then just do it, but avoid the public political displays of anger.

[108]

I agree. It is the sad reality of envy.

Yet I think it is important to inform people of reality...

since we are using those terms, one could easily say he is being "greedy"

but that sounds ridiculous right

you guys and your platitudes

[wargunfan]

Mikelson is merely the canary in the coal mine. For every one who speaks out there are thousands leaving California for greener pastures. By the time the politicians in Cali realize what has happened it will be a giant bankrupt barrio. There is a tipping point wherein the negatives outweigh the positives. California, if it continues to drive away productive businesses and individuals, is well on the way there.

[QGator2414]

since we are using those terms, one could easily say he is being "greedy"

but that sounds ridiculous right

you guys and your platitudes

Who is greedy?

Government? Individual? Etc?

[secgator]

Who is greedy?

Government? Individual? Etc?

You are asking one of the most liberal posters in here if it's the GOVT or individual who is greedy???

C'mon Q....you already know what kind of answer you'd get.

The govt? Greedy? In the opinion of a 'critical thinker'???? :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[108]

Who is greedy?

Government? Individual? Etc?

i didn't say he was greedy, i said since we are throwing around empty words like envy, with no proof of it, he could easily be called that by some

personally i could give a chit what he does, but it was a dumb move on his part to state his views publicly, given much of his income indirectly comes from folks who make much much less, as he said

i haven't seen yet how this relates to liberals other than conservatives trying to tie it in

[108]

this notion that liberals are envious is the epitome of low effort thinking

just because one speaks out against the inherent inequality of a rigged system, doesn't mean they are envious of success

amassing lots of wealth is not on the top of my totem pole, and even if it were, i would not be envious of others for their individual ability to create wealth

[DieAGator]

Who is angry? Is it implied anger from beneficiaries of the confiscation or politicians who would allocate another's?

[gator10010]

just because one speaks out against the inherent inequality of a rigged system, doesn't mean they are envious of success


Just because one speaks out honestly about his personal tax rate does not make him stupid.

Everyone claims to be tired of people being "politically correct". Here we have a golfer who says openly and honestly, "I'm leaving Cali because the taxes are unbearable " and this makes people mad why?

[gatorman_07732]

Liberals believe they are entittled to your money

[g8orbill]

Just because one speaks out honestly about his personal tax rate does not make him stupid.

Everyone claims to be tired of people being "politically correct". Here we have a golfer who says openly and honestly, "I'm leaving Cali because the taxes are unbearable " and this makes people mad why?

because he is rich and they aren't

makes little difference if he worked hard and used his talents to get ahead

[MichiGator2002]

because he is rich and they aren't

makes little difference if he worked hard and used his talents to get ahead

Pathetic that they can't be arsed even to think "because he can golf and I can't", because the common rationalization is "well, I could have been as good as him, if I had just done the work", as if 'doing the work' was just a trite formality.

[QGator2414]

i didn't say he was greedy, i said since we are throwing around empty words like envy, with no proof of it, he could easily be called that by some

personally i could give a chit what he does, but it was a dumb move on his part to state his views publicly, given much of his income indirectly comes from folks who make much much less, as he said

i haven't seen yet how this relates to liberals other than conservatives trying to tie it in

And why is it dumb?

Because people are...wait for it...Envious.

Otherwise they would not care that he said it...

But hey I get people are blinded by their envy.

[QGator2414]

this notion that liberals are envious is the epitome of low effort thinking

just because one speaks out against the inherent inequality of a rigged system, doesn't mean they are envious of success

amassing lots of wealth is not on the top of my totem pole, and even if it were, i would not be envious of others for their individual ability to create wealth

I need to learn more about this "rigged system". Then maybe I can make millions playing golf...or at least provide the tips to my kids...

[108]

Just because one speaks out honestly about his personal tax rate does not make him stupid.

Everyone claims to be tired of people being "politically correct". Here we have a golfer who says openly and honestly, "I'm leaving Cali because the taxes are unbearable " and this makes people mad why?

i said his actions were stupid from a PR perspective, where your public image is the most important aspect when it comes to sponsorships, advertisements, etc

[QGator2414]

You are asking one of the most liberal posters in here if it's the GOVT or individual who is greedy???

C'mon Q....you already know what kind of answer you'd get.

The govt? Greedy? In the opinion of a 'critical thinker'???? :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Yep. And a few posts down we learn about the "rigged system"...

[108]

is anyone going to attempt to even show how "liberals" were the reason Mickelson issued an apology, or is this circle jerk gonna go on without proving causation?

"hey, Phil issued an apology about taxes, it must be liberals fault" :roll:

[QGator2414]

is anyone going to attempt to even show how "liberals" were the reason Mickelson issued an apology, or is this circle jerk gonna go on without proving causation?

"hey, Phil issued an apology about taxes, it must be liberals fault" :roll:

Envy is not just a liberal issue. Though liberals have more severe cases of it and tend to struggle with it more than others IMO...

[108]

Envy is not just a liberal issue. Though liberals have more severe cases of it and tend to struggle with it more than others IMO...

i tend to find people project their own issues

wealth accumulation seems much more of a conservative obsession than a liberal one

hence why taxes are such a big issue for them

i never think about my taxes...it's just like rent to me

sure I wouldn't complain if they were lowered, or I was able to put it towards areas I agree with, but much of it is out of my control, and its not something i spend precious time on

[g8trjax]

For all the Phil haters, oops. http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/01/23/tiger-woods-moved-too-says-mickelson-was-right-about-taxes/

[gatorman_07732]

i tend to find people project their own issues

wealth accumulation seems much more of a conservative obsession than a liberal one

hence why taxes are such a big issue for them

i never think about my taxes...it's just like rent to me

sure I wouldn't complain if they were lowered, or I was able to put it towards areas I agree with, but much of it is out of my control, and its not something i spend precious time on

Don't fool yourself there are a ton of rich liberals. that are extremely greedy. Warren Buffett for example refuses to pay his fair share.

[108]

For all the Phil haters, oops. http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/01/23/tiger-woods-moved-too-says-mickelson-was-right-about-taxes/

the issue isn't him moving, he could have done that with no fan fair like Tiger did back then

[g8orbill]

IU fail to see why it is an issue that he spoke out on the ree dik uh luss amount of money he pays out in taxes

our tax system is punitive and it does punish the producers and as long as we have the 47% who pay no income taxes we will have the 47% who get up in arms because phil or someone else who makes a lot of money, said something that might in the end cause them to get less in redistribution or even have to start paying something

[108]

Don't fool yourself there are a ton of rich liberals. that are extremely greedy. Warren Buffett for example refuses to pay his fair share.

i didn't say there weren't rich liberals

i said wealth obsession seems to be more of a conservative trait

after all, one of the biggest draws of the Republican Party is the platform of reducing taxes...

[jimgata]

It"s true, personal wealth accumulation is not a goal of the vast majority of liberals. It is everyone elses wealth they want to accumulate.
Phil M has a right to live anywhere he wishes, for any reason, and it is NOBODY"S business.

[gatorman_07732]

i didn't say there weren't rich liberals

i said wealth obsession seems to be more of a conservative trait

after all, one of the biggest draws of the Republican Party is the platform of reducing taxes...

You're so wrong, there are a ton of tax cheating liberals
Hey, Bernard Madoff was bankrolling liberal causes and candidates.

[108]

IU fail to see why it is an issue that he spoke out on the ree dik uh luss amount of money he pays out in taxes


its been laid out several times why some people gave him flak for his comments

you might disagree with their POV, but not even being able to comprehend why some people made an issue of it, is a compression issue on your part

[g8orbill]

no-I fully understand class envy 108-I just think it is ree dik uh luss

[QGator2414]

i tend to find people project their own issues

wealth accumulation seems much more of a conservative obsession than a liberal one

hence why taxes are such a big issue for them

i never think about my taxes...it's just like rent to me

sure I wouldn't complain if they were lowered, or I was able to put it towards areas I agree with, but much of it is out of my control, and its not something i spend precious time on

I don't necessarily disagree with this.

Though it only makes sense to me if you are not wanting to invest in your community with your own liberty and freedom...

Otherwise you will want what you earn to better your community the way you feel is best...

[QGator2414]

It still does not change the envy people have for Phil being rich. There should be no reason for it to be bad PR to let it be known his taxes are ridiculously high. But it is because of envy...

[gatorman_07732]

The only difference is consevatives are open about it and liberals are in the closet

[108]

You're so wrong, there are a ton of tax cheating liberals

i didn't say there weren't tax cheating liberals

i said wealth obsession seems to be more of a conservative trait, as the centerpiece of their party's platform is lowering taxes, aka putting more money in your pocket

liberals as a whole, tend to be more intrinsic based

[Burke]

Haven't you heard?

The rich didn't "build that."

That is, earn anything.

They are deeply indebted to "this country" for everything they have.

They should be forced to "give back."

The ungrateful SOBs.

[wgbgator]

It still does not change the envy people have for Phil being rich. There should be no reason for it to be bad PR to let it be known his taxes are ridiculously high. But it is because of envy...

If envy is indeed a problem as you think, its merely a byproduct of the capitalist system which allows for such vast material distinctions. You can rail against it all you like, but like golf clubs, it is a product produced by the economic system you cherish. It could no more be absent than compound interest or profit.

[gatorman_07732]

i didn't say there weren't tax cheating liberals

i said wealth obsession seems to be more of a conservative trait, as the centerpiece of their party's platform is lowering taxes, aka putting more money in your pocket

liberals as a whole, tend to be more intrinsic based

See post above, you're fooling yourself. You think most of the people on Wall St are conservative?

[108]

It still does not change the envy people have for Phil being rich. There should be no reason for it to be bad PR to let it be known his taxes are ridiculously high. But it is because of envy...

i missed where people expressed their enviousness of Phil for just being rich

can you share a link?

or do you just equate some people giving him flak over it with being envious

im thinking the latter

as for "their should be no reason", that just isn't reality...people will find a reason to be upset regardless of any issue...there are people who don't want to hear a rich guy who plays a soft sport, complain about his taxes, when most people would be lucky to even make what he pays in taxes

that isn't enviousness

[gatordowneast]

Envy and jealousy gets one nowhere. Which is why the envious and jealous end up as wards of the state...the mooch class. They waste all their mental energy on how others have prospered and how "unfair".

The real deal is the libbie elites like John Kerry and AlGore and trust funders like the Kennedys, are every bit as concerned with taxes as pubs but they do it quietly (like registering a $7 M sailboat in RI rather than MA to save $500 K in taxes) or excercising Apple Stock options ahead of an earnings announcement that dissapoints and selling earning millions in additional profit at Capital Gains rates.

And these same hypocrits pontificate for the "working man" and fairness...bs..bs...bs. It is really to keep the peasants with pitchforks at bay so they stay off their asses. Just like the Kings and Emperors of yesteryear. Throw em some scraps and they think I care.

As to Phil, look for him to move to Whisper Rock in North Scottsdale and bail on CA. He owns property there, is a member, Bones plays out of there as do a dozen or so other on PGA and Senior tour. And AZ is like Florida...a magnet for athletes wanting to avoid the severe taxation of the blue states.

[108]

If envy is indeed a problem as you think, its merely a byproduct of the capitalist system which allows for such vast material distinctions. You can rail against it all you like, but like golf clubs, it is a product produced by the economic system you cherish. It could no more be absent than compound interest or profit.

BINGO

and its partly to blame for why there is so much theft crime in the US

that isn't to say we shouldn't have the capitalistic system, but as a byproduct of a economic culture that heavily promotes the individual accumulation of material possessions, envy will follow

but this notion that liberals as a whole are envious is just silly

[CHFG8R]

Or at least boldly state their plans to leave a state because the taxes are terrible?

Phil Mickelson is tonight apologizing for making it clear that he plans to leave California for Texas in order to relieve himself of California's awful taxes.

The debate isn't whether California's taxes are in fact worse than those of Texas. People are acting as if Mickelson owes it to everybody to incur California's smothering taxes? Why? Is this really how deep seeded the fairness doctrine has become? That you have to check the political-correctness of anything you do with your money? Does it really need to be stated that just because it seems "fair" it doesn't mean it will work?

No wonder the few people I know who are wealthy keep quiet about it.

Look, I've defended Phil on the principal of this on two other threads, but the bottom line is this: Don't make a statement if you don't want people to react to it - positively or negatively. He put it out there and now people are reacting. You (and I) just don't agree with their position.

I would imagine, in retrospect, Phil probably wishes he just packed his stuff and moved to Texas and let folks react to that.

[wgbgator]

In fact, "envy" may be as much a benefit to capitalism as it is a detriment.

[108]

In fact, "envy" may be as much a benefit to capitalism as it is a detriment.

haha, imagine if everyone just stopped wanting more in this consumer based economy

it would crumble

our whole economic culture is based on believing that the accumulation of materiel possessions is what will bring one happiness :lie:

[secgator]

haha, imagine if everyone just stopped wanting more in this consumer based economy
it would crumble

our whole economic culture is based on believing that the accumulation of materiel possessions is what will bring one happiness :lie:

"Wanting more" is vastly different than "complaining about those who actually have more". The latter is what we see the libs do much, MUCH more than those on the right.

If indeed wanting more is beneficial, then those who complain about others should get off their asses and do something about it--such as WORK towards attaining those things they "want"--instead of expecting the 'have's' to give it to them--the 'have nots or wannabes'.

[Dreamliner]

It's our essential French-ness that causes us to lash out at people who have more money than we do and to demand a piece of it.

[northgagator]

Isn't amazing that we spend so much time debating about how much taxes the top ten% pay in taxes?

Why don't we debate the following about what increases will or will not do?
1, if the top wage earners are taxed 100% the nation would still be in debt every year.
But it’s a fantasy to imagine that raising taxes on the rich will solve our deficit problem. If the IRS grabbed 100 percent of income over $1 million, the take would be just $616 billion. That’s only a third of this year’s deficit. Our national debt would continue to explode.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danbigman/2012/04/03/john-stossel-tax-the-rich-the-rich-dont-have-enough-really/

2, California having a budget surplus? Just the typical political smoke and mirrors.
Let's put this $9 billion a year in deferred retirement benefit payments into perspective. It is 50 percent more than the $6 billion in taxes raised by Proposition 30. It is $3.4 billion more than the budget would spend next year on the UC and CSU systems combined. It is 16 times the governor's proposed "wall of debt" repayments to other state funds. Indeed, making full payment of state retirement benefit costs would consume $36 billion of the $51 billion in new revenue the governor expects through
http://www.sacbee.com/2013/01/20/5125278/balanced-budget-hides-pension.html

While we're at it we need to debate how out tax dollars are spent
3, Too much time on tax debate and not enough time on the spending debate. We need to spend more time debating the driving forces that raised the need for tax increases. A good aces to start is the overlapping responsibilities with gov't agencies. Last year the GAO raised this issue and some action was taken by the White House and Congress. More action is needed!
In the weeks after the report’s publication, the White House launched a “Campaign to Cut Waste” that has identified new ways to eliminate redundancies, including accelerated plans to sell off excess federal real estate, cut back on official travel and end the distribution of some “office swag” and close more than 800 federal data centers by the end of 2015. More recently, President Obama requested authority from Congress to merge several trade- and commerce-related offices and programs into a new agency and is asking aides to identify other ways to consolidate programs.

Since last year’s report, the GAO said the Obama administration has addressed 110 of the 145 actions it proposed could be taken by the White House and federal agencies. Congress has addressed 12 of the 31 steps it proposed lawmakers could take, GAO said. The committee’s Democrats noted those figures mean the White House has done more than Congress to address concerns with duplication.
“These reports show that, if the actions are implemented, the government could potentially save tens of billions of dollars annually,” GAO Director Gene Dodaro told the panel. Though determining the total cost savings from eliminating or merging programs is difficult to estimate, “even limited adjustments could result in significant savings.”
http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/post/gao-overlapping-government-programs-cost-billions/2012/02/27/gIQAnSPdeR_blog.html]

4, To much time is spent debating the cost and the increases for the budgets of our entitlement programs. We need to be debate how we can make these program more efficient. Efficient in how we can get the recipients of these entitlements to be more productive and the deliver the required goods and services to them at a lower cost. In other words we have gone way to long in upping the dollar amounts on the checks and not enough time on getting more bang for our bucks.

5, The US Congress and the President need to get out of the business of buying votes with out tax money. There are way too many special interest groups that spend way too much money corrupting or governing process. The only way to eliminate this corruption is not by campaign reform but by election reform.

If we address these items maybe we can reduce the need for tax increased and maybe the rich will be more willing to pay more in taxes.

[fredsanford]

I envy how far Phil hits it and how my wife swoons when she sees him.

[Swampmaster]

hard left liberals get furious when people don't pay a high tax the government decides to impose and use tax planning to shift income to another jurisdiction, lower the tax rate or avoid the tax entirely.

Example: John Kerry's $7 million yacht (owned by his billionaire wife's company) - docked in Rhode Island which has no yacht tax. John saved $500,000 in taxes by keeping the yacht out of Massachusetts. For political reasons, John "decided" to pay the tax, but he should have refused.

http://nlpc.org/stories/2010/07/29/john-kerry%E2%80%99s-yacht-another-tax-rich-republicans

http://www.nlpc.org/sites/default/files/AP100723010797.jpg

[wygator]

i didn't say there weren't tax cheating liberals

i said wealth obsession seems to be more of a conservative trait, as the centerpiece of their party's platform is lowering taxes, aka putting more money in your pocket

liberals as a whole, tend to be more intrinsic based

It's not about "putting more money" in their pocket. It is about the government taking less money out of the pocket. It was Mickelson who put the money in his pocket, not the government. This whole idea the our money is the property of the government and they "let" us keep some is part of the problem with the role of the government in the eyes of many today.

The question is how much is too much?

I think when the feds are taking more than a third of your income, it is too much. After all, God only asks for 10%! Especially when state and local governments are going to be layered on top of that.

What we are supposed to get is the smallest government that can reasonably provide for its constitutional responsibilities. What we are getting now is a bloated monstrosity whose appetite only grows. It must stop somewhere.

[108]

"Wanting more" is vastly different than "complaining about those who actually have more". The latter is what we see the libs do much, MUCH more than those on the right.

If indeed wanting more is beneficial, then those who complain about others should get off their asses and do something about it--such as WORK towards attaining those things they "want"--instead of expecting the 'have's' to give it to them--the 'have nots or wannabes'.

or conservatives mistake liberals fighting for economic justice and equality for enviousness :yes:

its much easier to think from a shallow level though

[108]

It's not about "putting more money" in their pocket. It is about the government taking less money out of the pocket. It was Mickelson who put the money in his pocket, not the government. This whole idea the our money is the property of the government and they "let" us keep some is part of the problem with the role of the government in the eyes of many today.

The question is how much is too much?

I think when the feds are taking more than a third of your income, it is too much. After all, God only asks for 10%! Especially when state and local governments are going to be layered on top of that.

What we are supposed to get is the smallest government that can reasonably provide for its constitutional responsibilities. What we are getting now is a bloated monstrosity whose appetite only grows. It must stop somewhere.


look i get where you are coming from, but i think its completely unrealistic to discuss this from a POV that you earn your money in a vacuum...paying taxes doesn't just help someone else, it directly helps you in many many ways.

sure we would all like to pick and choose where are taxes go, but that isn't going to happen

screw small or big, just give me efficient government that isn't beholden to big money special interests

[northgagator]

screw small or big, just give me efficient government that isn't beholden to big money special interests

Basically that is what I said in my last post on this thread.

What you and I want are not that far apart.

What do you propose to change the current statuesque?

[secgator]

or conservatives mistake liberals fighting for economic justice and equality for enviousness :yes:

its much easier to think from a shallow level though

I just love the terms you libs come up trying to rationalize and justify that disguised 'envy'.

You can toss around terms all day but we all see through it. You want what others have--and most of you libbies can't stand it that someone else has it, so you bitch and whine and complain about it.

One word defines your left mantra--envy. Period.

[jimgata]

What is economic justice?
Justice is giving everyone an equal chance and not just giving equal results.
The left is becoming more absurd each day. I guess they want every dollar someone earns sent to Washington and bureaucrats can then dole out how much they want each to have.

[MichiGator2002]

There is nothing economically unjust about Phil Mickelson getting paid what he makes. That is how much what he does is worth to the tournament sponsors and commercial sponsors to entice him to work with them to advance their own profitability. Is it economically unjust to get $8 million a picture, when your presence in it could be the difference of millions of dollars for the studio and the theaters as well?

[Dreamliner]

'Economic justice' basically means "Give me some of your damn money!!!"

[gatorman_07732]

Democrats love taxes but many don't pay them. Hell the Treasury Secretary is a tax cheat

[gatordowneast]

Democrats love taxes but many don't pay them. Hell the Treasury Secretary is a tax cheat

"Many don't pay them?"

You can change that to "most don't pay income tax" and it would be pretty accurate. The demo party should change their symbol from the "donkey" to a Turkey Vulture sitting on a branch waiting for a handout.

[108]

Basically that is what I said in my last post on this thread.

What you and I want are not that far apart.

What do you propose to change the current statuesque?

serious campaign finance/lobby reform

[108]

There is nothing economically unjust about Phil Mickelson getting paid what he makes. That is how much what he does is worth to the tournament sponsors and commercial sponsors to entice him to work with them to advance their own profitability. Is it economically unjust to get $8 million a picture, when your presence in it could be the difference of millions of dollars for the studio and the theaters as well?

for Christ's sake, nobody said there was anything unjust about how he earned his money

all i am saying is that conservatives mistake any sort of push against wealth inequality as a sign of enviousness

and I still haven't been shown how his apology was because of liberals...it was purely to not hurt his future ability to make more $$$, which is completely fine

[Dreamliner]

for Christ's sake, nobody said there was anything unjust about how he earned his money

all i am saying is that conservatives mistake any sort of push against wealth inequality as a sign of enviousness

... which it is. Amazing that leftists don't see this.

[108]

... which it is. Amazing that leftists don't see this.

sigh

there will be no understanding here when you really believe that

Amazing that rightist can't see past their own projection

[QGator2414]

If envy is indeed a problem as you think, its merely a byproduct of the capitalist system which allows for such vast material distinctions. You can rail against it all you like, but like golf clubs, it is a product produced by the economic system you cherish. It could no more be absent than compound interest or profit.

Envy is a byproduct of the depraved man...

[Dreamliner]

sigh

there will be no understanding here when you really believe that

Amazing that rightist can't see past their own projection

I suppose I should have pointed out that you're confusing categories to begin with (along with ignoring history).

There is a difference between tax inequality and wealth inequality. Nobody likes the former, leftists hate the latter and use it gin-up unrest, even if they have to call envy by another name, like 'social injustice.'

[madgator]

I envy how far Phil hits it and how my wife swoons when she sees him.


how your wife swoons? or his?

[rpmGator]

When they sent captured Afrika Corps soldiers to Texas. There was a man shortage to do the farm work. So they offed them money, that they could use to buy beer, in return for work.

Some quit as they said it was hotter than the Sahara Desert... Texas isn't for everyone.

If all you love is money, you are missing the best things in life.

[wygator]

look i get where you are coming from, but i think its completely unrealistic to discuss this from a POV that you earn your money in a vacuum...paying taxes doesn't just help someone else, it directly helps you in many many ways.

sure we would all like to pick and choose where are taxes go, but that isn't going to happen

screw small or big, just give me efficient government that isn't beholden to big money special interests

I didn't say we shouldn't pay taxes, or that we can pick and choose which ones to pay.

Do you disagree that the government is trying to do too much? When we're borrowing 40 cents of every dollar we spend it is self-evident.

It isn't a revenue problem...it is a spending problem.

There is a point somewhere on the percentage continuum where you can't continue to increase taxes whether fed, local or state. I think we've passed it already...some will disagree.

[MichiGator2002]

for Christ's sake, nobody said there was anything unjust about how he earned his money

all i am saying is that conservatives mistake any sort of push against wealth inequality as a sign of enviousness

and I still haven't been shown how his apology was because of liberals...it was purely to not hurt his future ability to make more $$$, which is completely fine

There is no way to say soaking Phil is in the interest of "economic justice" without the collateral implication that him being left to his wealth is somehow a perpetuation of some sort of economic injustice. Don't get to have it both ways.

[mocgator]

Something about Atlas Shrugging?....

[rpmGator]

Did Atlas move to Texas also...

[secgator]

for Christ's sake, nobody said there was anything unjust about how he earned his money

all i am saying is that conservatives mistake any sort of push against wealth inequality as a sign of enviousness

and I still haven't been shown how his apology was because of liberals...it was purely to not hurt his future ability to make more $$$, which is completely fine

Hmmmmm....now THIS part really is interesting. It is the complete root of your view. Care to define or rationalize "wealth inequality"??? Perhaps the simple fact of life escapes your critical thinking, but you need to accept the cold hard truth that will ALWAYS be a difference in degrees of wealth among society. Unless that is your goal--to make damn sure everyone has the same amount of wealth.

Is that what you are really trying to say here 108??

In reality, having that inequality as you state---should, and DOES help to motivate those who want a bigger share to go out and get some. Excluding lazy ass libs who want it spread around after taking from the wealthy to give it to them. After all, it is the libs who...as you state... "push against wealth inequality".

[ArtVandelay]

i tend to find people project their own issues

wealth accumulation seems much more of a conservative obsession than a liberal one

hence why taxes are such a big issue for them

i never think about my taxes...it's just like rent to me

sure I wouldn't complain if they were lowered, or I was able to put it towards areas I agree with, but much of it is out of my control, and its not something i spend precious time on

Don't you know by now that "they" only know how to use talking points like "liberal" and "class envy". No original thought of their own.

This has nothing to do with either. I think as a human being with common sense. I don't agree with all liberals and disagree with all right-wings.

I made the comments I did because I heard he was talking about retiring because he was paying too many taxes. I don't have a problem with someone moving to keep more of their earnings.

I am not envious of Phil. I might be a little jealous of Phil for being as talented as he is and for having as much money as he does, but I am happy for him. I contribute to his wealth personally. I am very content with my life and money isn't the most important thing, but I don't see anything wrong with being a little jealous of someone that never has to worry about money again for him or his family.

Phil is entitled to talk about how he isn't happy. It just seems a little greedy and insensitive to the people that have trouble scraping 2 nickels together or who work extremely hard and often and still have to live paycheck to paycheck.

I don't think he needed to apologize, but I do think that if anyone with that kind of money makes a comment like he did, he will get a ton of backlash and I don't see anything wrong with that.

[CalSFGator]

... which it is. Amazing that leftists don't see this.

even billionnaire and millionnaire leftists? This "envy" thing is so trite and unthoughtful by conservatives, and it seems to come mostly out of the lower class and middle-class right. Few actual rich people I know think like this (on both sides of the spectrum).

We have a long tradition in Westernized social life that the wealthy seem petty and cheap when they bitch in public about the costs of life. I bitch about taxes all the time, because I don't like paying 53% either, to fund wars, and aircraft carriers and bailouts, and border patrols, and DEA agents, etc, but I have the manners not to do it in front of members of my family struggling from paycheck to paycheck. I also don't tell them how much my clothes cost or bitch about how expensive apartments in SF are. It's common courtesy.

For some reason, the trailor park righties come out in droves to talk about class envy on the left whenever anyone points out the above. It's weird.

[wgbgator]

No one wants to see MTV Cribs: Tax Policy Edition, they want Lord Grantham.

[gator421]

even billionnaire and millionnaire leftists? This "envy" thing is so trite and unthoughtful by conservatives, and it seems to come mostly out of the lower class and middle-class right. Few actual rich people I know think like this (on both sides of the spectrum).

We have a long tradition in Westernized social life that the wealthy seem petty and cheap when they bitch in public about the costs of life. I bitch about taxes all the time, because I don't like paying 53% either, to fund wars, and aircraft carriers and bailouts, and border patrols, and DEA agents, etc, but I have the manners not to do it in front of members of my family struggling from paycheck to paycheck. I also don't tell them how much my clothes cost or bitch about how expensive apartments in SF are. It's common courtesy.

For some reason, the trailor park righties come out in droves to talk about class envy on the left whenever anyone points out the above. It's weird.

Ignorant would be a better word than weird. IMO.

[northgagator]

serious campaign finance/lobby reform

That type of reform is impossible. People from the very start were bartering goods and service to obtain special favor. All reform does is catch the stupid politicians and drive the smart politicians to operate in the dark where they can't be seen.

The best approach is to take money and politicians out if the equation as much as possible.

How do you feel about:
1, Going back to the the system where the US Senators are elect by the State Houses in there home state.
2, Make it illegal for lobbyist to pay or treat US Congress men/women.
3, Campaign contributions can only come from private individuals who reside in or do business in the candidate's home district (for House of Reps) and home state (for Senators).
4, Term limits or at the least make a Us Congressman sit out a term after serving two consecutive terms.
5, Do not allow the piggybacking of an unrelated bill or budget item onto a bill.

Doing this has three impacts.
One. It makes it harder for a lobbyist to buy or influence a US Senator.
Two, it makes the US Senator more beholden to his/hers home state instead of to an out of state and out of country special interest. Also, it has the US Senator voting more in line with how the his state house votes.
Three, Cut down on the pork.

[ArtVandelay]

Ignorant would be a better word than weird. IMO.

Ignorant would be a great word for most of the people on here...

[jimgata]

Is it greedy an insensitive to spend millions of tax payers money on vacations and more millions on White House parties? All this being done by the self acclaimed champion of the middle class.
Poor old Phil, greedy and insensitive but not a peep about millions being spent for personal pleasure by the occupants of the White House. It is Phil's money and while Obama may think so, it is damn sure not Obama's money Obama is spending.

[secgator]

Is it greedy an insensitive to spend millions of tax payers money on vacations and more millions on White House parties? All this being done by the self acclaimed champion of the middle class.
Poor old Phil, greedy and insensitive but not a peep about millions being spent for personal pleasure by the occupants of the White House. It is Phil's money and while Obama may think so, it is damn sure not Obama's money Obama is spending.

But that is totally different. That is because he is...The Messiah. And he can do with OUR money, any thing he damn well pleases. Merely because--he is the smartest human to have ever lived. He is the Great Uniter and he is working his magic on his many vacations, bringing mankind together in the name of Obama.

Haven't you read the latest Liberal Lemming manual? When something is wrong and unjust, and done by someone other than a lib--it is profusely wrong. When the same is done by one of the comrade kinship of Liberals....it is completely acceptable.

Face it jimgata...the left would NEVER admit to anything Obama does as being wrong, unethical, or lacking common sense judgement. Never.

[Swampmaster]

why would any person not do everything in their legal power to avoid paying any of these obscene taxes to the corrupt u.s. government, that wastes or steals 80% of the money???

[neisgator]

He apologized because:

A- he sponsors products and his clients don't want him dipping in political waters.
B- because as he eloquently said today, many of his fans who can't find work or are underemployed living paycheck to paycheck and he doesn't want to alienate them.

If you are going to do it then just do it, but avoid the public political displays of anger.

Pussification of America, your table is now available.

[108]

I suppose I should have pointed out that you're confusing categories to begin with (along with ignoring history).

There is a difference between tax inequality and wealth inequality. Nobody likes the former, leftists hate the latter and use it gin-up unrest, even if they have to call envy by another name, like 'social injustice.'

you don't have to be envious to recognize that the average worker has been getting the short stick ever since Reagan brought in Trickle Down

https://motherjones.com/files/images/change-since-1979-300.gif

[108]

That type of reform is impossible. People from the very start were bartering goods and service to obtain special favor. All reform does is catch the stupid politicians and drive the smart politicians to operate in the dark where they can't be seen.

The best approach is to take money and politicians out if the equation as much as possible.

How do you feel about:
1, Going back to the the system where the US Senators are elect by the State Houses in there home state.
2, Make it illegal for lobbyist to pay or treat US Congress men/women.
3, Campaign contributions can only come from private individuals who reside in or do business in the candidate's home district (for House of Reps) and home state (for Senators).
4, Term limits or at the least make a Us Congressman sit out a term after serving two consecutive terms.
5, Do not allow the piggybacking of an unrelated bill or budget item onto a bill.

Doing this has three impacts.
One. It makes it harder for a lobbyist to buy or influence a US Senator.
Two, it makes the US Senator more beholden to his/hers home state instead of to an out of state and out of country special interest. Also, it has the US Senator voting more in line with how the his state house votes.
Three, Cut down on the pork.

that would be a great start

[wygator]

you don't have to be envious to recognize that the average worker has been getting the short stick ever since Reagan brought in Trickle Down

https://motherjones.com/files/images/change-since-1979-300.gif

A comparison of the top 1% to an average of a much larger group is going to be misleading. The top 1% (a group that will change over time) is the people doing exceptionally well at any particular time.

Would like to know if the data is inflation adjusted. I'm guessing it is.

[CHFG8R]

hard left liberals get furious when people don't pay a high tax the government decides to impose and use tax planning to shift income to another jurisdiction, lower the tax rate or avoid the tax entirely.

Example: John Kerry's $7 million yacht (owned by his billionaire wife's company) - docked in Rhode Island which has no yacht tax. John saved $500,000 in taxes by keeping the yacht out of Massachusetts. For political reasons, John "decided" to pay the tax, but he should have refused.

http://nlpc.org/stories/2010/07/29/john-kerry%E2%80%99s-yacht-another-tax-rich-republicans

http://www.nlpc.org/sites/default/files/AP100723010797.jpg

Meh. Newport is more of a sailing town anyway. I mean, did he do it for tax purposes or because that's where the rest of the rich NEerners keep their yachts?

[CHFG8R]

That type of reform is impossible. People from the very start were bartering goods and service to obtain special favor. All reform does is catch the stupid politicians and drive the smart politicians to operate in the dark where they can't be seen.

The best approach is to take money and politicians out if the equation as much as possible.

How do you feel about:
1, Going back to the the system where the US Senators are elect by the State Houses in there home state.
2, Make it illegal for lobbyist to pay or treat US Congress men/women.
3, Campaign contributions can only come from private individuals who reside in or do business in the candidate's home district (for House of Reps) and home state (for Senators).
4, Term limits or at the least make a Us Congressman sit out a term after serving two consecutive terms.
5, Do not allow the piggybacking of an unrelated bill or budget item onto a bill.

Doing this has three impacts.
One. It makes it harder for a lobbyist to buy or influence a US Senator.
Two, it makes the US Senator more beholden to his/hers home state instead of to an out of state and out of country special interest. Also, it has the US Senator voting more in line with how the his state house votes.
Three, Cut down on the pork.

Like it. I thing, generally, the best thing is transparency. I've always hoped someone would do a website (I'd call it "followthemoney.com") that breaks down and analyzes all contributions and outs the major contributors. I've always said, if you want to know where these guys/gals really stand, follow the money.

[jimgata]

If the rich got their wealth illegally, press charges and have them arrested. If not just continue to envy and bitch about the wealthy.

[wygator]

Like it. I thing, generally, the best thing is transparency. I've always hoped someone would do a website (I'd call it "followthemoney.com") that breaks down and analyzes all contributions and outs the major contributors. I've always said, if you want to know where these guys/gals really stand, follow the money.

Here's one, but it's not too specific. I've seen another that list all the contributors and I'll try to track it down.

Choose the "Politicians and Elections" tab on the navigation bar.

http://www.opensecrets.org/index.php

[CHFG8R]

Here's one, but it's not too specific. I've seen another that list all the contributors and I'll try to track it down.

Choose the "Politicians and Elections" tab on the navigation bar.

http://www.opensecrets.org/index.php

Someone should do this they way they did the "Fact Checker" thing. Dig deep. Make the very purpose of the site to really bother both parties. You could even start working in editorial content and maybe even gain some traction if marketed well. That is, if the media would be interested and not scared of pissing off certain advertisers.

[CHFG8R]

Here's one, but it's not too specific. I've seen another that list all the contributors and I'll try to track it down.

Choose the "Politicians and Elections" tab on the navigation bar.

http://www.opensecrets.org/index.php

That's a pretty good site.