How can Conservatives, especially Middle/Upper Class Whites, still love this country?

[OrlandoG8tr]

Well like many I watched the inauguration yesterday (even though it was more like a coronation for a king), and just as I had started getting over the election of Barack Obama yesterday brought back all of the raw emotion, all of the anger, all of the sadness, all of the despair that I experienced in the days after his victory in November. It really got me thinking, why should I even stay in this country? Why should any middle or upper class white male, white female, or white family (yes I am making this racial, but it's not what you think it is) stay in this country any longer? This is a philosophical question in nature, not a political question.

Let me start by taking my family, those who I hold dearest to my heart. Those who I would do anything for, including sacrificing my own life. They are hated, ever single one of them, for who they are. Barack Obama and other liberal organizations have made sure that the majority of the nation hates my family. I will break it down for all of you, my mom and dad grew up dirt poor but are now very wealthy. My mom has been a stay at home mom for most of her life and my dad, from what I know, makes about $275,000 a year (after bonuses). In the current culture of this country, that makes them hated individuals. My dad would be hated because he is one of those "ultra rich" people who stole from poor people and runs a business that he built, but of course as Obama would say, "you didn't build that." Funny, I never saw the government helping my dad, and any roads the government provided for my dad to transport the goods his company makes was partially paid for by his own taxes! My dad would also be hated by most liberals because he owns a gun and has clearly told both my sister and I that "if anyone dare tries to enter my house and threaten us, they will die." My mom would be hated by the feminist groups because she represents everything they hate. She put her kids above her career, she accepted the male as the head of the household and primary breadwinner, and she embraced the traditional female role.

Now, lets go on and look at my sister and her family. My sister and my brother in law live the American dream as much as you can live it in these days and times. They married young, had 2 kids, live in the suburbs with a white picket fence (well not picket but a white fence), and are actively involved in their kids school and the homeowners association. Now of course it would be argued that because they didn't come from broken homes, that they had it easier than others and that they didn't really build that life for themselves. True they might have had it easier, but my brother in law got laid off just life a lot of others during the 2008-2010 recession and was out of work for awhile. He is back on his feet now and doing very well, but I know it took a toll on all of them. My brother in law would be hated though by the atheists and feminists in this country, mainly because he is deeply religious and against abortion. He would also be hated by most liberals because he now makes six figures. My sister would be hated because, like my mom, she is a stay at home mom. She worked as a teacher until they had their first child, at which point she put the well being of their child over her career. The feminists would have wanted that child in government daycare at 5 or 6 months, but my sister embraces a traditional female role, and that is staying at home with the kids, raising them, and doing the housework since her husband works 55 - 65 hours a week. My sister is hated for that.

Now lets conclude with my own situation. Technically I should probably be celebrated by the left. I do not make a lot of money in relation to the rest of my family, I am not married, I do not have kids, I am at least somewhat socially liberal, and while I am religious I am probably the least religious out of all of my family. But lets not be too quick to judge, I am hated because I believe the government has no business dealing with marriage. I believe that gay and straight couples should have the same right and protections, but that it should legally be a civil union. The government should not legally deal with marriage at all, marriage should remain a sacrament in the church. Now if a gay couple can find a church that will marry them, that's fine, but that's where it should be. The atheists because of these views hate me. I also believe that abortion should be illegal except in the case of rape or incest. Now atheists and feminists hate me. I also believe in the second amendment. I believe that we do need to crack down on who can buy guns, I believe any gun purchase should not happen until a criminal background check is done, and I believe assault riffles should be banned. But other than that, I believe people should be able to buy guns, including semi-automatic and automatic weapons. I believe in people having concealed weapons permits and being able to defend themselves. With that said, not the atheists, feminists, and liberals can hate me.

So here's my question, why should I stay in this country? For the first time in my life I am not proud to be an American. I might be a U.S. citizen, but I am not an American. This country has abandoned me, my family, and others like me. I look at our government and there is no one who I feel truly represents me. What makes me even more sick is that I look at my fellow citizens. My fellow citizens hate me, they wish I would leave or just die. Why you ask, because I have traditional values, because my family would be considered "insanely wealthy" by many, because we believe in individual rights and do not believe that big government is the answer. It's not the government I've lost faith in, I lost faith in them long ago and the inauguration of Barack Obama just solidified that. I've lost faith in the American people, because Americans now want to punish success, they want to drive out religion, they want to drive out individualism, they hate women like my mom and sister who would put the family unit above their careers, they hate everything about us. I hear Americans talk about how they wish they could burn down the houses of the rich, how they wish religion would be banned all together, how the rich do not pay their fair share (my dad pays more in taxes than I make in a year, is that not enough for you liberals? what is the fair share? who has the right to determine that? is 100% enough?), how business entrepreneurs didn't really create that business, it's everything. People like me are the ones discriminated against when it comes to jobs, because we don't add any diversity credit to an employer. People like me and my family are hated because we believe immigrants should come here LEGALLY and that ILLEGAL immigrants and their children (who should be children of their parents country, not the US) should be sent back to their home country and allowed to then apply to live here. I am sick of it all.

I honestly do not understand how any family like me (religious, conservative, white, middle/upper class) could still love this country? How do you love a country that now hates everything about you and wishes you were one of those who were aborted? I know that not only do I no longer love this country, I hate it. It's a good thing that there isn't a flag nearby, I would probably spit on it at this point. Why shouldn't I, the majority of the citizens who represent this country now spit on me!

I would leave but sadly my family still wants to stay in this country. Nothing I have said and could say would get them to leave. As much as I would love to leave I can't be that far away from them, they mean too much for me. Besides, if other citizens decide families like mine shouldn't be allowed to live, I need to be there to protect them as much as I possibly can. I can tell you this though, when I attend football games in the Swamp next year, it will be a different me. I will not stand up and say the Pledge of Allegiance, I will not sing the National Anthem, and I will not respect the Flag of a country that hates everything about everyone I hold dear. I will not do in the Swamp or any sporting or public event, and I definitely won't cheer for any US teams in international competitions. During those times I will quietly be messing with my iphone, and I pity the person who tries to give me a hard time about not respecting the traditions of this country, because they will get everything you just heard in this message.

Your thoughts? And please, someone change my mind, someone convince me that this country doesn't hate me and that I should still love it. I would be interested to hear it.

[ChartsandGrafs]

How can Conservatives, especially Middle/Upper Class Whites, still love this country?

Because they've been brainwashed to. That's the honest truth. Our system of government and corporate media propaganda is so finely tuned and cradle-to-grave comprehensive that it would make even Joseph Goebbels blush.

Functionally speaking, most Americans are just mindless zombies.

[gregthegator]

I'm curious as too what the American Indians think/thought....me thinks the O.P. has AN entitlement issue...and I'm NOT talking /writing about THE social give-aways...

I only know ONE white person who will give you an honest FULL day of work that's under 30 years of age...

By the way...I'm white...and an employer...

[108]

the really funny thing about this diatribe is that you would be really proud to be an American if Romney won....which says something about the lack of depth in this dilemma of yours

nobody hates you....get out of your head

[oragator1]

I realize there was a lot of passion in that post, but honestly I think you are being overly dramatic. I don't know anyone who hates stay at home moms, 80% count themselves as religious, and as a white male who makes far more than the national average, I don't feel persecuted or hated at all. What people "hate" is when things like religion are perverted to be used for political gain, or when those with money use it to rig the system in their favor. They don't hate your dad or begrudge his success, they hate that the system is structured to benefit him more than them.
But many of these things have always been, your country is little changed from 5 or 10 years ago, and will be little changed 10 years from now, any changes are on the margins. Are we slowly becoming more liberal socially? Yes, but that has been happening for hundreds of years. Any "hate" on side is more than offset by "hate" on the other.

[g8orbill]

no- you just want what you didn't earn 108-and there in lies the rub

orlando-I am not sure why you wold watch the 47%ers prez do anything

[CalSFGator]

These obscure martyr complexes on the right are very creepy, and usually a pretty obvious form of projection. What I can tell from this post is that the OP hates a lot of things, liberals chief among them.

[GatorNorth]

Methinks the OP has read too many talking points.

More judgments in the OP alone than contained in most threads. This revisionist prattle about the Republicans becoming a party of fiscal discipline after the past 50 years is laughable. Neither party has the cojones to do what's necessary.

[WESGATORS]

Two words: college football

:D

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[ncgatr1]

I commented in another thread about this. It's not just conservatives, it is the centrists too. Most of my affluent friends, and yes, they are job providers, really think the balance of power has no shifted and will remain with thecDems from here out. It because the entitlement sector, which includes the elderly, minorities, and Latinos, now control the path of this Country under the direction of the academia, elitists, and media. There is less a concern for the well being of the less fortunate and more of a self centered attitude emerging from this class in the protection and caring of their own family. This growing callousness and less giving is going to hurt the less fortunate in this Country. The upper middle class and the wealthy will eventually stop caring and concentrate on isolating their, assests and family from any class which is considered less fortunate. This includes charitable contributions. I know people who have basically thrown in the towel. Some say this will open opportunities for the less fortunate with the voids that will be created, and this may be correct, but it will take many years If not decades to fill these voids. There are still places to go in this Country get away from all the moochers.

[GatorJeff]

These obscure martyr complexes on the right are very creepy, and usually a pretty obvious form of projection. What I can tell from this post is that the OP hates a lot of things, liberals chief among them.

Agreed. That was weird and creepy. I was thinking that he must have gotten the text from a right-wing blogger rather than typed it into a Gator Country message board. That whole diatribe is "chain E-mail worthy" for conservatives, I suppose.

On a happy note, as long as his Dad has 25,000 in itemized deductions, he wouldn't have to pay a dime more in income tax under any plan that increases marginal rates on those making taxable income above 250K.

[Matthanuf06]

There is certainly a war against white hard working educated families. We are being made the slaves of the majority. Of that there is no doubt.

But what is the alternative? Europe? Well then we are just swapping American slave masters for even more brutal European. Plus there are things here that are appealing that even the government can't screw up: family, friends, sports, the Gators, the weather, etc.

It is a relative choice. Yes America is getting much worse for the educated white productive family, but that doesn't mean any other place is better once everything is factored in.

[LeafUF]

I didnt read that novel but having read the OPs posts in the past I can guess what was said. My only recommendation is get a hobby because you clearly have too much time on your hands to be thinking about all the people persecuting you. Maybe become a doomsday prepper and put all of your anxiety and fears to use.

[CalSFGator]

There is certainly a war against white hard working educated families. We are being made the slaves of the majority. Of that there is no doubt.

Oh, there is certainly doubt about this war you speak of.

What there is, however, and without a doubt, is the growing sentiment among aging white males that they are being marginalized, that all the plaintive cliches of their world domination (that they secretly took great solace in) have found willing ears, and that they may somehow become the masses they always looked down on. You pay less taxes today than your parents did, you have all the world at your finger tips, nothing holding you back and as much wealth creation capability as the world has ever seen, but you lament the lingering feel of the amputated arm of your residual hierarchical prominence. Tired perhaps of thankless leadership, of being tough for the rest of the world, now the white older males get to finally cry a bit, and how they are taking advantage of it. So, they jump on their college sport message board on their way to Starbucks for their mochachino and prattle on about a yesteryear they only imagine, pretend the world is spinning out of control and away from the structure their ancestors built, that they are despised by the ghosts in their delusional fear neurosis, and that one day someone is going to wake and realize just how amazing they are.

It isn't taxes, or healthcare, or globalization, or terrorists, or border-hopping head-detaching Mexicans, or green energy they really fear - it's their own irrelevance, its the inexorable realization that nobody gives a flying f*** about them anymore. White american conservative males are the collective high school stud QB that suddenly has to work hard to get tail in college just like every body else, and when they stop feeling so sorry for themselves, somebody might actually want to sleep with them. Right now they just sound like a bunch of whiny little babies to me.

[bluelang]

I'm a white middle-class middle-aged dude with a wife, three kids, a dog, a big-ass truck, and a boat who has no college degree and pays about a combined 35% effective - not marginal, effective - that's the 60% marginal rate if you're wondering - tax rate on my income and I ****ing LOVE America. I love every ****ing inch of it and I love every ****ing person in it. I love my freedoms and I love my opportunity and I love that I have an excellent chance of dying a rich fat **** who came from the sticks and left his kids a fortune. I love every state and I love every highway, and I love every mountain and every beach. I love all the myopic, navel-gazing racists who make the internet such an entertaining place.

[ChartsandGrafs]

I'm a white middle-class middle-aged dude with a wife, three kids, a dog, a big-ass truck, and a boat who has no college degree and pays about a combined 35% effective - not marginal, effective - that's the 60% marginal rate if you're wondering - tax rate on my income and I ****ing LOVE America. I love every ****ing inch of it and I love every ****ing person in it. I love my freedoms and I love my opportunity and I love that I have an excellent chance of dying a rich fat **** who came from the sticks and left his kids a fortune. I love every state and I love every highway, and I love every mountain and every beach. I love all the myopic, navel-gazing racists who make the internet such an entertaining place.

Cool story, bro.

Is that you bluelang?

http://kidneycancerchronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/6-fat-man.jpg

[bluelang]

I have a better beard.

[fredsanford]

You should leave. Take 5 people along that think like you do.

I'm glad Obama's second term brings you the same pain that Bush's second term brought me.

I didn't want to live in Bush's America, either. But I knew better days would be ahead.

[PITBOSS]

good point.

"I believe that we do need to crack down on who can buy guns, I believe any gun purchase should not happen until a criminal background check is done, and I believe assault riffles should be banned."

[dadx4]

the really funny thing about this diatribe is that you would be really proud to be an American if Romney won....which says something about the lack of depth in this dilemma of yours

nobody hates you....get out of your head

No, this is not true. Romney wasn't a conservative either. I remember downtown Atlanta growing up, the underground. Dueling pianos, great restaurants, really upscale chothing stores, etc. Have any of you been to the Atlanta underground lately? This is what's happening to our country.

[ncgatr1]

I think the point is missed, the demographics have now shifted and will never be in the favor of the white upper middle class to wealthy again. These are the people whom will become less giving in the future. It's only common sense. I'm starting to see it with my friends and I know this is not a flash in the pan attitude. People now realize the less fortunate and entitlement holders have the upper hand and it's not going to change. This is the major difference from Bush's second term. I myself have become more callous to the needs of others and I used to do a lot for people but I'm not giving my money, time and effort away anymore to those who want to take it from my family because they don't want to work and pump out babies. This is the attitude I'm now seeing.

[gatordowneast]

You should leave. Take 5 people along that think like you do.

I'm glad Obama's second term brings you the same pain that Bush's second term brought me.

I didn't want to live in Bush's America, either. But I knew better days would be ahead.

Why are better days ahead. Our debt is astronomically higher. Less people employed than in 2007. Household incomes down 5,000 per on average. Obamacare causing health care insurance rates to balloon. Why will it be better with goober in charge of anything?

As an example...see below.

WASHINGTON (CBS DC) – Fewer than four-in-10 Americans (39 percent) rate the US in a positive manner – the most negative feedback the country has produced since 1979.

A new Gallup poll finds that Americans are as negative about the country’s prospects as they have been in more than three decades. Americans are more upbeat in their predictions of where the U.S. will be in five years (48 percent positive), but this is the lowest rating since an August 1979 Gallup poll was conducted.

[GatorNorth]

No, this is not true. Romney wasn't a conservative either. I remember downtown Atlanta growing up, the underground. Dueling pianos, great restaurants, really upscale chothing stores, etc. Have any of you been to the Atlanta underground lately? This is what's happening to our country.

I work in downtown Atlanta every day. Downtowns largely failed in the US because of white flight when its workers abandoned intown living for the promise of a 3BR house with the 2 car garage on an acre of land and picket fence, swim and tennis club and a better school system closer to work because someones company left downtown for an office building in Dunwoody.

Without that there is no real void to be filled and downtowns might have survived. Downtowns, especially Atlanta's, weren't abandoned by people first but by evacuating corporate sponsorship and a decreasing sense of civic pride. Eastern, Delta Arthur Andersen, all the big law firms. Gone for good or to suburban campuses or shiny new high rises in midtown, which is what downtown used to be without the department store.

Have you been to Old 4th Ward lately? Or Inman Park? Fabulous urban renewal driven by people not jobs or companies

You need to tell the whole story, not just the part that fits your politics.

[fredsanford]

Why are better days ahead. Our debt is astronomically higher. Less people employed than in 2007. Household incomes down 5,000 per on average. Obamacare causing health care insurance rates to balloon. Why will it be better with goober in charge of anything?

As an example...see below.

WASHINGTON (CBS DC) – Fewer than four-in-10 Americans (39 percent) rate the US in a positive manner – the most negative feedback the country has produced since 1979.

A new Gallup poll finds that Americans are as negative about the country’s prospects as they have been in more than three decades. Americans are more upbeat in their predictions of where the U.S. will be in five years (48 percent positive), but this is the lowest rating since an August 1979 Gallup poll was conducted.

Yep. Bush really did ruin things.

[enviroGator]

nobody hates you....get out of your head

This!

[enviroGator]

I'm a white middle-class middle-aged dude with a wife, three kids, a dog, a big-ass truck, and a boat who has no college degree and pays about a combined 35% effective - not marginal, effective - that's the 60% marginal rate if you're wondering - tax rate on my income and I ****ing LOVE America. I love every ****ing inch of it and I love every ****ing person in it. I love my freedoms and I love my opportunity and I love that I have an excellent chance of dying a rich fat **** who came from the sticks and left his kids a fortune. I love every state and I love every highway, and I love every mountain and every beach. I love all the myopic, navel-gazing racists who make the internet such an entertaining place.

Rep my man. I'm right there with you!

[108]

No, this is not true. Romney wasn't a conservative either. I remember downtown Atlanta growing up, the underground. Dueling pianos, great restaurants, really upscale chothing stores, etc. Have any of you been to the Atlanta underground lately? This is what's happening to our country.

too many colored folks for you?

[MichiGator2002]

Yep. Bush really did ruin things.

On the autopsy report of America, 60 million people actually belieiving those six words should be listed as COD.

[108]

Why are better days ahead. Our debt is astronomically higher. Less people employed than in 2007. Household incomes down 5,000 per on average. Obamacare causing health care insurance rates to balloon. Why will it be better with goober in charge of anything?

As an example...see below.

WASHINGTON (CBS DC) – Fewer than four-in-10 Americans (39 percent) rate the US in a positive manner – the most negative feedback the country has produced since 1979.

A new Gallup poll finds that Americans are as negative about the country’s prospects as they have been in more than three decades. Americans are more upbeat in their predictions of where the U.S. will be in five years (48 percent positive), but this is the lowest rating since an August 1979 Gallup poll was conducted.


yes, we went through a massive recession, that btw, wasn't because of the "moochers" class that you all speak of

we have a health care bill that generally keeps the status quo in place because our elected officials are beholden to big money...even though our health care costs are eating us up....yet we see above to the north and across the pond, that there are systems in place that reduce costs and get better outcomes....but no, we can't aim towards that, because we have to have our pretend "free-market" (crony monopolistic) system

you guys bitch and moan about those who feel entitled, yet there are older white males behind most of today's current problems...one's who feel entitled to loot our country's wealth at all costs and the puppets they elect to help them

[gatordowneast]

yes, we went through a massive recession, that btw, wasn't because of the "moochers" class that you all speak of

we have a health care bill that generally keeps the status quo in place because our elected officials are beholden to big money...even though our health care costs are eating us up....yet we see above to the north and across the pond, that there are systems in place that reduce costs and get better outcomes....but no, we can't aim towards that, because we have to have our pretend "free-market" (crony monopolistic) system

you guys bitch and moan about those who feel entitled, yet there are older white males behind most of today's current problems...one's who feel entitled to loot our country's wealth at all costs and the puppets they elect to help them

108, you don't believe what you just wrote about our health care situation do you? If so, who is paying for your health insurance...ask them about costs. And your comment re England or Canadian Health Care and outcomes is absurd. Outcomes are nowhere near ours and it is well documented that Canadians with resources in need of imediate care come to the US. And in England, there is the "public" system for the masses and the "private pay" for those with the resources.

And no kidding re white males being behind most of our nation's problems/issues. Obama is doubling down but who is counting....certainly not the media. We are looking for solutions from his administration. Continuing to blame Bush for a housing crisis and financial collapse that was 15 years in the making spanning both Clinton and Bush years is not solving the issue of employment and economic growth needed to lift this big boat out of the mess. Obama's policies are inhibiting all but the growth of the food stamp rolls.

[108]

108, you don't believe what you just wrote about our health care situation do you? If so, who is paying for your health insurance...ask them about costs. And your comment re England or Canadian Health Care and outcomes is absurd. Outcomes are nowhere near ours and it is well documented that Canadians with resources in need of imediate care come to the US. And in England, there is the "public" system for the masses and the "private pay" for those with the resources.

And no kidding re white males being behind most of our nation's problems/issues. Obama is doubling down but who is counting....certainly not the media. We are looking for solutions from his administration. Continuing to blame Bush for a housing crisis and financial collapse that was 15 years in the making spanning both Clinton and Bush years is not solving the issue of employment and economic growth needed to lift this big boat out of the mess. Obama's policies are inhibiting all but the growth of the food stamp rolls.

you are living in a fairytale if you think our health care system is the best in the world

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Publications/Fund-Reports/2010/Jun/~/media/Images/Publications/Fund%20Report/2010/jun/MM2010l.gif

[gatordowneast]

108, should you be diagnosed with cancer, heart disease, need an organ transplant or need treatment for any catastrophic disease, I would suggest you visit one of the countries you think is better. I will trust my family's health to the best trained physicians and health care professionals in the world...OURS.

Cheaper does not mean better. Docs flock to the US for their training.

[OaktownGator]

You should leave. Take 5 people along that think like you do.

I'm glad Obama's second term brings you the same pain that Bush's second term brought me.

I didn't want to live in Bush's America, either. But I knew better days would be ahead.

If you believe that, you're almost as deluded as the OP... Obama's presidency is very little different from GW's from a policy perspective. Different rhetoric, but overwhelmingly the same actions.

Anyone who thinks their lives would be substantively different if the other guy was in office has been smoking too much of the partisan stash.

[exiledgator]

I work in downtown Atlanta every day. Downtowns largely failed in the US because of white flight when its workers abandoned intown living for the promise of a 3BR house with the 2 car garage on an acre of land and picket fence, swim and tennis club and a better school system closer to work because someones company left downtown for an office building in Dunwoody.

Without that there is no real void to be filled and downtowns might have survived. Downtowns, especially Atlanta's, weren't abandoned by people first but by evacuating corporate sponsorship and a decreasing sense of civic pride. Eastern, Delta Arthur Andersen, all the big law firms. Gone for good or to suburban campuses or shiny new high rises in midtown, which is what downtown used to be without the department store.

Have you been to Old 4th Ward lately? Or Inman Park? Fabulous urban renewal driven by people not jobs or companies

You need to tell the whole story, not just the part that fits your politics.

Any woes we are experiencing are far more complex than many are willing to accept, and this is just of a myriad of issues. Euclidean (single-use) zoning helped kill many urban areas and helped promote the suburban overgrowth that's currently dragging behind our economy like a huge anchor.

Some cities are revisiting their 20th Century zoning and embracing, multi-use urban zoning and the younger generation loves it. Much of our youth doesn't want to spend 1.5 hours a day commuting. They don't want "McWorld" (the box store zone just outside the city). They want to walk to work and store and entertainment. This, IMO, is a good thing as our population continues to expand.

/end tangent.

[gator7_5]

I commented in another thread about this. It's not just conservatives, it is the centrists too. Most of my affluent friends, and yes, they are job providers, really think the balance of power has no shifted and will remain with thecDems from here out. It because the entitlement sector, which includes the elderly, minorities, and Latinos, now control the path of this Country under the direction of the academia, elitists, and media. There is less a concern for the well being of the less fortunate and more of a self centered attitude emerging from this class in the protection and caring of their own family. This growing callousness and less giving is going to hurt the less fortunate in this Country. The upper middle class and the wealthy will eventually stop caring and concentrate on isolating their, assests and family from any class which is considered less fortunate. This includes charitable contributions. I know people who have basically thrown in the towel. Some say this will open opportunities for the less fortunate with the voids that will be created, and this may be correct, but it will take many years If not decades to fill these voids. There are still places to go in this Country get away from all the moochers.

This is a really solid post. This class warfare created from the top has worn me out. I used to be a pretty compasionate individual I think. Not anymore. It's every man for himself now. All I care about is me and my family. Basically everyone I know who is successful is circling the wagons now. I guess that's what our leaders want. I'm not sure why.

[gatorpa]

These obscure martyr complexes on the right are very creepy, and usually a pretty obvious form of projection. What I can tell from this post is that the OP hates a lot of things, liberals chief among them.

No different than the "war on women", Romney "hates poor people", Pubs "hate gays" complex as propagated by the left.

[GatorNorth]

Any woes we are experiencing are far more complex than many are willing to accept, and this is just of a myriad of issues. Euclidean (single-use) zoning helped kill many urban areas and helped promote the suburban overgrowth that's currently dragging behind our economy like a huge anchor.

Some cities are revisiting their 20th Century zoning and embracing, multi-use urban zoning and the younger generation loves it. Much of our youth doesn't want to spend 1.5 hours a day commuting. They don't want "McWorld" (the box store zone just outside the city). They want to walk to work and store and entertainment. This, IMO, is a good thing as our population continues to expand.

/end tangent.

I agree with you completely. Gen Y'ers love authenticity not suburbia. They want cell phones not land lines. Apartments not tract homes. And many want cohabitation and going out in groups not marriage. And they now comprise the largest portion of the work force, so this is not merely faddish.

Unfortunately billions of dollars of suburban residential real estate will ultimately be the illiquid or slow growth victim of this demographic change, so albeit a good thing it's not without a price to the prior generation.

[CalSFGator]

No different than the "war on women", Romney "hates poor people", Pubs "hate gays" complex as propagated by the left.

I would generally agree with you, except it's not quite as much the overstatement (the "war on women" is, as that is an idiotic phrase). Whereas the Pub party actually caters these days to a political subsector that includes righties carrying God Hates Fags signs, and panders to religious leaders, such as Fallwell, Dobson, Robertson, etc., that clearly do hate gays. Romney clearly doesn't hate poor people, he just can't understand them, as his statements have made pretty clear, and the war on women is a crude overstatement of the Pub's decision not to court the swing female vote, at least from a policy point of view.

On the other hand, the left and centrist democrats like Obama, clearly love white males. If you ask Jersey all the corruption in the world comes from overpaid fat white lawyers. The democratic party in Congress is still vastly majority older white males, all those LA douches the right hates are loaded with self-satisfied white males. Obama is a wild corporatist that has been very good to Wall Street, made up, lest you haven't noticed, primarily of white males.

So, you have a point on the hyperbole, the difference is at least the ones you pointed out are tied to at least a shred of reality.

[Dreamliner]

Love it or leave it!

[108]

108, should you be diagnosed with cancer, heart disease, need an organ transplant or need treatment for any catastrophic disease, I would suggest you visit one of the countries you think is better. I will trust my family's health to the best trained physicians and health care professionals in the world...OURS.

Cheaper does not mean better. Docs flock to the US for their training.

so lets just pretend America has the best healthcare in the world for the most amount of people....how do we realistically reduce the cost

and don't just start and end with tort reform...

[g8orbill]

well it sure as hell won't get reduced by a guvment take over

[rivergator]

Well like many I watched the inauguration yesterday (even though it was more like a coronation for a king), and just as I had started getting over the election of Barack Obama yesterday brought back all of the raw emotion, all of the anger, all of the sadness, all of the despair that I experienced in the days after his victory in November. It really got me thinking, why should I even stay in this country? Why should any middle or upper class white male, white female, or white family (yes I am making this racial, but it's not what you think it is) stay in this country any longer? This is a philosophical question in nature, not a political question.

Let me start by taking my family, those who I hold dearest to my heart. Those who I would do anything for, including sacrificing my own life. They are hated, ever single one of them, for who they are. Barack Obama and other liberal organizations have made sure that the majority of the nation hates my family. I will break it down for all of you, my mom and dad grew up dirt poor but are now very wealthy. My mom has been a stay at home mom for most of her life and my dad, from what I know, makes about $275,000 a year (after bonuses). In the current culture of this country, that makes them hated individuals. My dad would be hated because he is one of those "ultra rich" people who stole from poor people and runs a business that he built, but of course as Obama would say, "you didn't build that." Funny, I never saw the government helping my dad, and any roads the government provided for my dad to transport the goods his company makes was partially paid for by his own taxes! My dad would also be hated by most liberals because he owns a gun and has clearly told both my sister and I that "if anyone dare tries to enter my house and threaten us, they will die." My mom would be hated by the feminist groups because she represents everything they hate. She put her kids above her career, she accepted the male as the head of the household and primary breadwinner, and she embraced the traditional female role.

Now, lets go on and look at my sister and her family. My sister and my brother in law live the American dream as much as you can live it in these days and times. They married young, had 2 kids, live in the suburbs with a white picket fence (well not picket but a white fence), and are actively involved in their kids school and the homeowners association. Now of course it would be argued that because they didn't come from broken homes, that they had it easier than others and that they didn't really build that life for themselves. True they might have had it easier, but my brother in law got laid off just life a lot of others during the 2008-2010 recession and was out of work for awhile. He is back on his feet now and doing very well, but I know it took a toll on all of them. My brother in law would be hated though by the atheists and feminists in this country, mainly because he is deeply religious and against abortion. He would also be hated by most liberals because he now makes six figures. My sister would be hated because, like my mom, she is a stay at home mom. She worked as a teacher until they had their first child, at which point she put the well being of their child over her career. The feminists would have wanted that child in government daycare at 5 or 6 months, but my sister embraces a traditional female role, and that is staying at home with the kids, raising them, and doing the housework since her husband works 55 - 65 hours a week. My sister is hated for that.

Now lets conclude with my own situation. Technically I should probably be celebrated by the left. I do not make a lot of money in relation to the rest of my family, I am not married, I do not have kids, I am at least somewhat socially liberal, and while I am religious I am probably the least religious out of all of my family. But lets not be too quick to judge, I am hated because I believe the government has no business dealing with marriage. I believe that gay and straight couples should have the same right and protections, but that it should legally be a civil union. The government should not legally deal with marriage at all, marriage should remain a sacrament in the church. Now if a gay couple can find a church that will marry them, that's fine, but that's where it should be. The atheists because of these views hate me. I also believe that abortion should be illegal except in the case of rape or incest. Now atheists and feminists hate me. I also believe in the second amendment. I believe that we do need to crack down on who can buy guns, I believe any gun purchase should not happen until a criminal background check is done, and I believe assault riffles should be banned. But other than that, I believe people should be able to buy guns, including semi-automatic and automatic weapons. I believe in people having concealed weapons permits and being able to defend themselves. With that said, not the atheists, feminists, and liberals can hate me.

So here's my question, why should I stay in this country? For the first time in my life I am not proud to be an American. I might be a U.S. citizen, but I am not an American. This country has abandoned me, my family, and others like me. I look at our government and there is no one who I feel truly represents me. What makes me even more sick is that I look at my fellow citizens. My fellow citizens hate me, they wish I would leave or just die. Why you ask, because I have traditional values, because my family would be considered "insanely wealthy" by many, because we believe in individual rights and do not believe that big government is the answer. It's not the government I've lost faith in, I lost faith in them long ago and the inauguration of Barack Obama just solidified that. I've lost faith in the American people, because Americans now want to punish success, they want to drive out religion, they want to drive out individualism, they hate women like my mom and sister who would put the family unit above their careers, they hate everything about us. I hear Americans talk about how they wish they could burn down the houses of the rich, how they wish religion would be banned all together, how the rich do not pay their fair share (my dad pays more in taxes than I make in a year, is that not enough for you liberals? what is the fair share? who has the right to determine that? is 100% enough?), how business entrepreneurs didn't really create that business, it's everything. People like me are the ones discriminated against when it comes to jobs, because we don't add any diversity credit to an employer. People like me and my family are hated because we believe immigrants should come here LEGALLY and that ILLEGAL immigrants and their children (who should be children of their parents country, not the US) should be sent back to their home country and allowed to then apply to live here. I am sick of it all.

I honestly do not understand how any family like me (religious, conservative, white, middle/upper class) could still love this country? How do you love a country that now hates everything about you and wishes you were one of those who were aborted? I know that not only do I no longer love this country, I hate it. It's a good thing that there isn't a flag nearby, I would probably spit on it at this point. Why shouldn't I, the majority of the citizens who represent this country now spit on me!

I would leave but sadly my family still wants to stay in this country. Nothing I have said and could say would get them to leave. As much as I would love to leave I can't be that far away from them, they mean too much for me. Besides, if other citizens decide families like mine shouldn't be allowed to live, I need to be there to protect them as much as I possibly can. I can tell you this though, when I attend football games in the Swamp next year, it will be a different me. I will not stand up and say the Pledge of Allegiance, I will not sing the National Anthem, and I will not respect the Flag of a country that hates everything about everyone I hold dear. I will not do in the Swamp or any sporting or public event, and I definitely won't cheer for any US teams in international competitions. During those times I will quietly be messing with my iphone, and I pity the person who tries to give me a hard time about not respecting the traditions of this country, because they will get everything you just heard in this message.

Your thoughts? And please, someone change my mind, someone convince me that this country doesn't hate me and that I should still love it. I would be interested to hear it.

I think that could be one of the whiniest things ever posted here. Which is saying something.
If you really dislike this country so much, grow a pair and leave. But I'm guessing you won't.

[fairfaxgator]

"During those times I will quietly be messing with my iphone..."

iphones made by Chinese...good one...

I think if you dont stand during the National Anthem or Pledge of Allegiance at the Swamp watching our beloved Gators or anywhere else for that matter, then you may just get your A$$ kicked and I may just have to watch...

- signed Center (left) Fairfaxgator...:)

Also, please send me the chain email you revised to make it YOUR life...:)

[gatorpa]

I would generally agree with you, except it's not quite as much the overstatement (the "war on women" is, as that is an idiotic phrase). Whereas the Pub party actually caters these days to a political subsector that includes righties carrying God Hates Fags signs, and panders to religious leaders, such as Fallwell, Dobson, Robertson, etc., that clearly do hate gays. Romney clearly doesn't hate poor people, he just can't understand them, as his statements have made pretty clear, and the war on women is a crude overstatement of the Pub's decision not to court the swing female vote, at least from a policy point of view.

On the other hand, the left and centrist democrats like Obama, clearly love white males. If you ask Jersey all the corruption in the world comes from overpaid fat white lawyers. The democratic party in Congress is still vastly majority older white males, all those LA douches the right hates are loaded with self-satisfied white males. Obama is a wild corporatist that has been very good to Wall Street, made up, lest you haven't noticed, primarily of white males.

So, you have a point on the hyperbole, the difference is at least the ones you pointed out are tied to at least a shred of reality.

Agree with you in principle, the funny thing is the branding by the Dem party has been amazing. Ex: Obama who essentially has live quite the special life himself, went to the private schools, private colleges, worked as an atty, then senator, then Pres. But somehow he plays the I know your plight...Exactly what menial job has he ever worked?

As far as the Pubs "not catering to women", not sure what they are to do, pimp out to every group/demographic there is? I think the thought of standing on principle is better than catering to each group but the messaging is poor. Self reliance, limited Gov, more constitutional closeness.

Not sure that the Pub party as a whole caters to the wacko religous right, I just think they are never going to align themselves with the Dems.

[tegator80]

Well, the OP was rather laborious to read but I hope you got something off your chest. My take is that the past great empires followed a similar path - creeping arrogance - that led to an ultimate breakdown. I can tell you what I have said to my child, who is 21: don't let our living here get in your way of your own life direction. That was the story of millions of people immigrating to the US. The reverse is also a plausible scenario. But these things happen much slower than what we think they should, and I expect that the "American Way" will continue for quite some time.

But yes, eventually all of the arrogance is going to drive our society down to third world status. That is unless we decide to blow up the world because China shows up to get their money back and we tell them "make us."

[rivergator]

Well, the OP was rather laborious to read but I hope you got something off your chest. My take is that the past great empires followed a similar path - creeping arrogance - that led to an ultimate breakdown. I can tell you what I have said to my child, who is 21: don't let our living here get in your way of your own life direction. That was the story of millions of people immigrating to the US. The reverse is also a plausible scenario. But these things happen much slower than what we think they should, and I expect that the "American Way" will continue for quite some time.

But yes, eventually all of the arrogance is going to drive our society down to third world status. That is unless we decide to blow up the world because China shows up to get their money back and we tell them "make us."

Your concern is creeping arrogance. The OP was all about hate. 'They hate this ... they hate that ....' I found it childish and ridiculous. And I don't know if it has anything to do with the creeping arrogance that you see.

[gatorpa]

Your concern is creeping arrogance. The OP was all about hate. 'They hate this ... they hate that ....' I found it childish and ridiculous. And I don't know if it has anything to do with the creeping arrogance that you see.

Look to the occupy crowd, plenty of hate there directed at what the OP alludes too.
Envy becomes hate when properly fomented, Karl Marx, Hitler, Mao knew that well.

[rivergator]

Look to the occupy crowd, plenty of hate there directed at what the OP alludes too.
Envy becomes hate when properly fomented, Karl Marx, Hitler, Mao knew that well.


The occupy wall street crowd signifies all of America now, huh? What that group thinks, America thinks. Is that it?

[108]

and for the record, the OWS movement doesn't hate wealth or success, what they hate is the rigged system

[DeanMeadGator]

You should leave. Take 5 people along that think like you do.

I'm glad Obama's second term brings you the same pain that Bush's second term brought me.

I didn't want to live in Bush's America, either. But I knew better days would be ahead.

I fought for my country in 'Nam, and I would do so again. I am an American - not a liberal or conservative when it comes to loving and believing in America and its freedoms.

If you don't like it here, go somewhere else. No one is compelled to stay. Iran is nice this time of the year.

[T3goalie]

Because they've been brainwashed to. That's the honest truth. Our system of government and corporate media propaganda is so finely tuned and cradle-to-grave comprehensive that it would make even Joseph Goebbels blush.

Functionally speaking, most Americans are just mindless zombies.

1) Goebbels would be blown away by the EU as well.

2) There is No need to insult Zombies.

[g8orbill]

I am very proud of my heritage

[g8orbill]

I am very proud of my heritage

Wrong thread

[T3goalie]

I only know ONE white person who will give you an honest FULL day of work that's under 30 years of age...

By the way...I'm white...and an employer...


I am a white employer also and this is an easy problem to solve. 1) If you hire a teenager make sure they are an IB student. Not AP, Not Honors, but IB. They are organized and must be driven to do well in IB. 2) If hiring college grads or professionals, Never, ever, ever ever, hire anyone,of any race, who did not put themselves through school. Those on the mom and dad $$ plan by in large have no concept of the value of money or how to work. They know how to be subsidized and have shown that they are not "hungry". Those who went to school on student loans without working only know how to get in debt. 3) Always hire the legal immigrant when you can. I don't care if he is white, black, Asian, an islander or Indian... They appreciate the opportunity that the USA represents because they have seen the hell hole that represents most of the world. 4) Never hire anyone that has pedigree but no proven "work" skills. The worst hire i ever made was hiring an Ivy league honors grad as an associate lawyer. :sick: The kid had no idea how to hustle. He did not make it 90 days. 5) Common sense is uncommon. hire kids with street smarts.:joecool:

[rivergator]

I am a white employer also and this is an easy problem to solve. 1) If you hire a teenager make sure they are an IB student. Not AP, Not Honors, but IB. They are organized and must be driven to do well in IB. 2) If hiring college grads or professionals, Never, ever, ever ever, hire anyone,of any race, who did not put themselves through school. Those on the mom and dad $$ plan by in large have no concept of the value of money or how to work. They know how to be subsidized and have shown that they are not "hungry". Those who went to school on student loans without working only know how to get in debt. 3) Always hire the legal immigrant when you can. I don't care if he is white, black, Asian, an islander or Indian... They appreciate the opportunity that the USA represents because they have seen the hell hole that represents most of the world. 4) Never hire anyone that has pedigree but no proven "work" skills. The worst hire i ever made was hiring an Ivy league honors grad as an associate lawyer. :sick: The kid had no idea how to hustle. He did not make it 90 days. 5) Common sense is uncommon. hire kids with street smarts.:joecool:

and yet we've some conservatives attacking IB

[wgbgator]

You know who else like to rant about his grievances with society? Hitler. :)

[tegator80]

Your concern is creeping arrogance. The OP was all about hate. 'They hate this ... they hate that ....' I found it childish and ridiculous. And I don't know if it has anything to do with the creeping arrogance that you see.

I saw his diatribe as a sign of despair and he was looking for some reason to move away from the ledge (so to speak). I was merely trying to get him so see that this behavior isn't really different than what has transpired throughout history. Hate is a very powerful tool for giving people a focus for their anger - Scapegoats - and not on what the real ills are. The Christians during the Roman rule and the Armenians during the end of the Ottoman empire are good examples. The rich are probably the best ones to single out: they MUST be cheating to get more than us. I just find it humorous, if it weren't so destructive, that a rich person is likely to throw those inferences out about some other rich person and their minions actually believe it. Edward Kennedy cared about the underprivileged? REALLY!?!

[gatorpa]

The occupy wall street crowd signifies all of America now, huh? What that group thinks, America thinks. Is that it?

No thank God not, but plenty loved the sentiment. See Dem party and the spender in chief.

[Swampmaster]

high tax, giveaway liberals will be running the country for years---the entitlement culture, very difficult to change once that ball gets rolling.

[gatorpa]

and for the record, the OWS movement doesn't hate wealth or success, what they hate is the rigged system

Did you get that from their web site?

The main thing I saw was the demonstrating against "evil rich CEO's, and evil rich corporations"

[gator7_5]

2) If hiring college grads or professionals, Never, ever, ever ever, hire anyone,of any race, who did not put themselves through school.

Your disqualifying a large population of graduates based on how their degree was financed?

Is it the first question you ask in an interview?

Also, is that a joke?

[rpmGator]

I love this nation, don't know why that would change based on politicians.

If you changed due to someone, I doubt you ever did love this nation and what is stands for.

[OaktownGator]

Well like many I watched the inauguration yesterday (even though it was more like a coronation for a king), and just as I had started getting over the election of Barack Obama yesterday brought back all of the raw emotion, all of the anger, all of the sadness, all of the despair that I experienced in the days after his victory in November. It really got me thinking, why should I even stay in this country? Why should any middle or upper class white male, white female, or white family (yes I am making this racial, but it's not what you think it is) stay in this country any longer? This is a philosophical question in nature, not a political question.

Let me start by taking my family, those who I hold dearest to my heart. Those who I would do anything for, including sacrificing my own life. They are hated, ever single one of them, for who they are. Barack Obama and other liberal organizations have made sure that the majority of the nation hates my family. I will break it down for all of you, my mom and dad grew up dirt poor but are now very wealthy. My mom has been a stay at home mom for most of her life and my dad, from what I know, makes about $275,000 a year (after bonuses). In the current culture of this country, that makes them hated individuals. My dad would be hated because he is one of those "ultra rich" people who stole from poor people and runs a business that he built, but of course as Obama would say, "you didn't build that." Funny, I never saw the government helping my dad, and any roads the government provided for my dad to transport the goods his company makes was partially paid for by his own taxes! My dad would also be hated by most liberals because he owns a gun and has clearly told both my sister and I that "if anyone dare tries to enter my house and threaten us, they will die." My mom would be hated by the feminist groups because she represents everything they hate. She put her kids above her career, she accepted the male as the head of the household and primary breadwinner, and she embraced the traditional female role.

Now, lets go on and look at my sister and her family. My sister and my brother in law live the American dream as much as you can live it in these days and times. They married young, had 2 kids, live in the suburbs with a white picket fence (well not picket but a white fence), and are actively involved in their kids school and the homeowners association. Now of course it would be argued that because they didn't come from broken homes, that they had it easier than others and that they didn't really build that life for themselves. True they might have had it easier, but my brother in law got laid off just life a lot of others during the 2008-2010 recession and was out of work for awhile. He is back on his feet now and doing very well, but I know it took a toll on all of them. My brother in law would be hated though by the atheists and feminists in this country, mainly because he is deeply religious and against abortion. He would also be hated by most liberals because he now makes six figures. My sister would be hated because, like my mom, she is a stay at home mom. She worked as a teacher until they had their first child, at which point she put the well being of their child over her career. The feminists would have wanted that child in government daycare at 5 or 6 months, but my sister embraces a traditional female role, and that is staying at home with the kids, raising them, and doing the housework since her husband works 55 - 65 hours a week. My sister is hated for that.

Now lets conclude with my own situation. Technically I should probably be celebrated by the left. I do not make a lot of money in relation to the rest of my family, I am not married, I do not have kids, I am at least somewhat socially liberal, and while I am religious I am probably the least religious out of all of my family. But lets not be too quick to judge, I am hated because I believe the government has no business dealing with marriage. I believe that gay and straight couples should have the same right and protections, but that it should legally be a civil union. The government should not legally deal with marriage at all, marriage should remain a sacrament in the church. Now if a gay couple can find a church that will marry them, that's fine, but that's where it should be. The atheists because of these views hate me. I also believe that abortion should be illegal except in the case of rape or incest. Now atheists and feminists hate me. I also believe in the second amendment. I believe that we do need to crack down on who can buy guns, I believe any gun purchase should not happen until a criminal background check is done, and I believe assault riffles should be banned. But other than that, I believe people should be able to buy guns, including semi-automatic and automatic weapons. I believe in people having concealed weapons permits and being able to defend themselves. With that said, not the atheists, feminists, and liberals can hate me.

So here's my question, why should I stay in this country? For the first time in my life I am not proud to be an American. I might be a U.S. citizen, but I am not an American. This country has abandoned me, my family, and others like me. I look at our government and there is no one who I feel truly represents me. What makes me even more sick is that I look at my fellow citizens. My fellow citizens hate me, they wish I would leave or just die. Why you ask, because I have traditional values, because my family would be considered "insanely wealthy" by many, because we believe in individual rights and do not believe that big government is the answer. It's not the government I've lost faith in, I lost faith in them long ago and the inauguration of Barack Obama just solidified that. I've lost faith in the American people, because Americans now want to punish success, they want to drive out religion, they want to drive out individualism, they hate women like my mom and sister who would put the family unit above their careers, they hate everything about us. I hear Americans talk about how they wish they could burn down the houses of the rich, how they wish religion would be banned all together, how the rich do not pay their fair share (my dad pays more in taxes than I make in a year, is that not enough for you liberals? what is the fair share? who has the right to determine that? is 100% enough?), how business entrepreneurs didn't really create that business, it's everything. People like me are the ones discriminated against when it comes to jobs, because we don't add any diversity credit to an employer. People like me and my family are hated because we believe immigrants should come here LEGALLY and that ILLEGAL immigrants and their children (who should be children of their parents country, not the US) should be sent back to their home country and allowed to then apply to live here. I am sick of it all.

I honestly do not understand how any family like me (religious, conservative, white, middle/upper class) could still love this country? How do you love a country that now hates everything about you and wishes you were one of those who were aborted? I know that not only do I no longer love this country, I hate it. It's a good thing that there isn't a flag nearby, I would probably spit on it at this point. Why shouldn't I, the majority of the citizens who represent this country now spit on me!

I would leave but sadly my family still wants to stay in this country. Nothing I have said and could say would get them to leave. As much as I would love to leave I can't be that far away from them, they mean too much for me. Besides, if other citizens decide families like mine shouldn't be allowed to live, I need to be there to protect them as much as I possibly can. I can tell you this though, when I attend football games in the Swamp next year, it will be a different me. I will not stand up and say the Pledge of Allegiance, I will not sing the National Anthem, and I will not respect the Flag of a country that hates everything about everyone I hold dear. I will not do in the Swamp or any sporting or public event, and I definitely won't cheer for any US teams in international competitions. During those times I will quietly be messing with my iphone, and I pity the person who tries to give me a hard time about not respecting the traditions of this country, because they will get everything you just heard in this message.

Your thoughts? And please, someone change my mind, someone convince me that this country doesn't hate me and that I should still love it. I would be interested to hear it.
I firmly believe in the golden rule, and that people generally treat you the way you treat the people around you. If you look for the good in people, you will see it, and they will see it in you.

I live in the most diverse city in the country (Oakland, CA) and am very active in the most diverse school in that city, as well as the Oakland Middle School Soccer League and the Oakland Soccer Club which serves primarily kids from lower income families who can't afford the big clubs with paid professional trainers.

What I tell you is what I know from living it in my personal life. People regardless of background will appreciate you and respect you if you appreciate and respect them.

The rest of all these political issues are just bullchit that obscure that bigger picture, and darken your life with negative emotions.

But don't just trust some random guy on the internet... listen to your family. They're the people that matter. And they want to be here in the USA, right?

Lighten up a little on the politics, and open your mind and your heart to the people around you... and it might just open you up to a less jaded view of the American people in general.

[T3goalie]

Your disqualifying a large population of graduates based on how their degree was financed?

Is it the first question you ask in an interview?

Also, is that a joke?

No Joke and i explained why. People who have never worked don't know how to work. I learned a long time ago that if you want productive workers hire workers not professional students who only know how to use mom and dad to subsidize them or borrow money... You can learn a lot from resumes but work experience is not taboo to discuss.

[bluelang]

Summarizing the OP:

http://i.qkme.me/35iawn.jpg