Touchy subject

[sparksel]

Ok I know this is a touchy subject, but I have to see if I'm the only one who feels this way. Tim Tebow got blasted and criticized for going to the end zone and praying. Did anyone see what Ray Lewis did? He went to the middle of the field, and pretty much waited until there was 50 cameras around him before he dropped to his knees. This personally drove me nuts! I realize I'm going to get blasted for this post but I am curious what other people though

[sparksel]

Thought*

[whitelakegator]

Ask him where his white suit is please.

[GATORAZ]

I didn't have a problem with what either did. I think a lot of people suffer from jealousy in this country.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

Tim Tebow got blasted and criticized for going to the end zone and praying.

He did?

[NoahBeanBizzel]

If you want to give glory to God, then glorify Him however you want to. Why is that such a big deal to people? You could make a case that it's arrogant not to thank the Maker of the stars.

I normally don't comment about Tebow or other professing Christians, and how they choose to go about their faith. I just don't get why it's such a big deal. I mean, they aren't out beating their spouses, or slapping their mothers, or getting drunk and mouthing off to cops out in public.

They're thanking God for the ability to do what they do. What's wrong with that?

[gator07]

I thought the exact same thing as it was happening.

[SkyChimp]

This personally drove me nuts!

I have learned to not to force my will on others. Everyone has free will and Ray praying on the field, or Tim praying on the field doesn't bother me. Both players have fans and haters for their actions on the field. I can tell you there are a lot of people that loved Tebow just because he was so open about his beliefs. I don't see any relevancy

[geauxgator1]

I think the op is saying that he's playing to the cameras and this was not a spontaneous moment.
I've always thought RL is an attention whore, but I didn't see what he did last night.

[DuPontGator]

Ray lewis is a fraud. The guy's a Jackass.

[SkyChimp]

Ray lewis is a fraud. The guy's a Jackass.

His personality is dynamic, and he can sell his character to people.

[NoahBeanBizzel]

I think the op is saying that he's playing to the cameras and this was not a spontaneous moment.
I've always thought RL is an attention whore, but I didn't see what he did last night.

Okay, so that's his opinion; that's not necessarily an absolute fact.

I'm entitled to say that it was Ray's moment, and he can celebrate it however he wants to.

Even if was "playing to the cameras", is that a problem? Is that poor sportsmanship? Is it illegegal? If it's none of those three things, why is it a big deal?

[JohnC1908]

The last few years I've bought into Lewis as I believe you can really turn your life around. However since coming back from the triceps injury he's become extremely annoying. The cry face and the laying on the field routine are obviously a loud loud cry for attention. I'm all for a little self promotion if you're conveying a positive message, but this is way over the top.

[DuPontGator]

His personality is dynamic, and he can sell his character to people.

What is his character?

[DuPontGator]

The last few years I've bought into Lewis as I believe you can really turn your life around. However since coming back from the triceps injury he's become extremely annoying. The cry face and the laying on the field routine are obviously a loud loud cry for attention. I'm all for a little self promotion if you're conveying a positive message, but this way over the top.

As soon as you think he has good intentions he stabs ya in the back.

[sparksel]

Okay, so that's his opinion; that's not necessarily an absolute fact.

I'm entitled to say that it was Ray's moment, and he can celebrate it however he wants to.

Even if was "playing to the cameras", is that a problem? Is that poor sportsmanship? Is it illegegal? If it's none of those three things, why is it a big deal?

What's isn't a fact? That you can find tons of articles saying Tebow should get off his knees, or that Ray Lewis walked to the middle of the field? I am all about these guys giving thanks to God, I was just seeing if anyone else thought it was a "well placed" prayer.

[GatorStang]

Great player, shitty person. His post game antics also ticked me off, he's completely fake.

[sparksel]

He is an absolute fantastic player. I am not taking a single thing away from him. He is probably the best MLB of all time. He gets his team fired up and I respect the heck out of him. I was just imagining in my head what if Tim had went to the middle of the field to drop down with 50 cameras around him, how would it be received?

[orangeblueorangeblue]

Really, though, who blasted Tebow for praying on the field?

[geauxgator1]

Okay, so that's his opinion; that's not necessarily an absolute fact.

I'm entitled to say that it was Ray's moment, and he can celebrate it however he wants to.

Even if was "playing to the cameras", is that a problem? Is that poor sportsmanship? Is it illegegal? If it's none of those three things, why is it a big deal?

Yeah he can do anything he wants to, it's still pretty much a free country...He never really killed anyone or anything like that... oh wait.. I don't know maybe he did. The guy's got a reputation/past and a lot of people think he's at the least disingenuous. Most people are just put off when they perceive someone is calling so much attention to themselves. Poor sportsmanship? I don't know, maybe just an egomaniac.

[JohnC1908]

Really, though, who blasted Tebow for praying on the field?

Not so sure their exact quotes but both Warner and Plummer in so many words said he needed to tone it down.

[gatorbait96]

What JohnC said! Said it perfectly.

[NoahBeanBizzel]

What's isn't a fact? That you can find tons of articles saying Tebow should get off his knees, or that Ray Lewis walked to the middle of the field? I am all about these guys giving thanks to God, I was just seeing if anyone else thought it was a "well placed" prayer.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what "drove you nuts". It sounded like you were insinuating that Lewis deliberately made a spectacle of himself, while cameras were around, in an effort to promote his own flesh.

So, what are you really trying to say?

[sparksel]

Really, though, who blasted Tebow for praying on the field?

Jake Plummer, Terrell Suggs, Bill Maher, Brady Quinn, just to name a few.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

Jake Plummer, Terrell Suggs, Bill Maher, Brady Quinn, just to name a few.

Without going through all of these, I see this as a matter of interpretation.

Quinn said the way Tebow expressed his faith didn't seem humble to him. Not specified on the field, per se, where I happen to think that players get a lot more leeway.

[sparksel]

Brady Quinn blasted Tim for praying in front of camera instead of with team mates. http://nesn.com/2012/02/brady-quinn-blasts-tim-tebow-for-praying-in-front-of-the-camera-instead-of-with-teammates/

[sparksel]

Without going through all of these, I see this as a matter of interpretation.

Quinn said the way Tebow expressed his faith didn't seem humble to him. Not specified on the field, per se, where I happen to think that players get a lot more leeway.


http://nesn.com/2012/02/brady-quinn-blasts-tim-tebow-for-praying-in-front-of-the-camera-instead-of-with-teammates/

[g8tr96]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what "drove you nuts". It sounded like you were insinuating that Lewis deliberately made a spectacle of himself, while cameras were around, in an effort to promote his own flesh.

So, what are you really trying to say?

I believe RL was in fact trying to draw attention to himself. Everybody I've talked to today, and some were even Ravens fans that are from Baltimore, said the same thing.

I'm sure it was from the heart for him. But even without actual proof, I still believe he was playing up to the cameras. Especially the stuff on the sidelines at the end of the game.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinions. Mine is he took a little advantage of the situation to a certain degree.....which in the grand scheme of things really doesn't matter.

[secgator]

His personality is dynamic, and he can sell his character to people.

He can also sell a good story to a prosecutor/investigator as well.

[sparksel]

I believe RL was in fact trying to draw attention to himself. Everybody I've talked to today, and some were even Ravens fans that are from Baltimore, said the same thing.

I'm sure it was from the heart for him. But even without actual proof, I still believe he was playing up to the cameras. Especially the stuff on the sidelines at the end of the game.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinions. Mine is he took a little advantage of the situation to a certain degree.....which in the grand scheme of things really doesn't matter.



I agree. I just thought it was a little much. That is all. He has the right to do anything he wants. I have the right to roll my eyes. Without getting into a huge religion fight, that was the only point I was trying to make. Like I said, Only my opinion. In the grand scheme, it doesn't matter one bit. Just sharing my opinion and seeing what other people's were.

[gatorzguy28]

Ray's character is that of a killer, if you ask me.
It is a matter of interpretation. IF you believe that Tim's was more authentic, then when you see someone who intentionally waits for the eyes of everyone to get on them, then they 'perform' their religion, it is discomforting. It parallels the Bible story of the Pharisees that prayed openly and aloud saying things like 'thank you for making me better than _____" and it breeds contempt for that kind of 'thanksgiving'. But that is my interpretation of that situation. I think the litmus test comes in the way they live their respective lives, and I just think Tebow is more authentic and truer to himself than Ray Lewis could ever be. I think always of Ray Lewis killing someone and skating; hard for me personally, to relate that to Tim with any level of religious comparability.

[NoahBeanBizzel]

I believe RL was in fact trying to draw attention to himself. Everybody I've talked to today, and some were even Ravens fans that are from Baltimore, said the same thing.

I'm sure it was from the heart for him. But even without actual proof, I still believe he was playing up to the cameras. Especially the stuff on the sidelines at the end of the game.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinions. Mine is he took a little advantage of the situation to a certain degree.....which in the grand scheme of things really doesn't matter.

Agree 100%. Nothing that he did brought any harm to anyone.

[j7]

If he is really believing, as I think he is, that the good Lord has a part in these events happening in Ray's life then I can believe it could be overwhelming to Ray. You can debate God's part in Ray's healing and the Raven's victories (just as in Tebow's last year) but if Ray believes God is working in/through him in some part in this then I believe he is so blown away by it that he responds as could be expected for him, with a lot of passion and humility (outward humility that is) plus he probably feels obligated and/or glad to share with others what he believes is happening here for those others to witness and see God's work. I don’t think it is self promotion but promoting God and what God can do in one’s life. Christians I believe are to testify to the Lord’s work and spread the word. Just as TT does.

[sparksel]

If he is really believing, as I think he is, that the good Lord has a part in these events happening in Ray's life then I can believe it could be overwhelming to Ray. You can debate God's part in Ray's healing and the Raven's victories (just as in Tebow's last year) but if Ray believes God is working in/through him in some part in this then I believe he is so blown away by it that he responds as could be expected for him, with a lot of passion and humility (outward humility that is) plus he probably feels obligated and/or glad to share with others what he believes is happening here for those others to witness and see God's work. I don’t think it is self promotion but promoting God and what God can do in one’s life. Christians I believe are to testify to the Lord’s work and spread the word. Just as TT does.

Very valid point. Ray does everything over the top, this could be him being genuine as possible.

[NoahBeanBizzel]

If he is really believing, as I think he is, that the good Lord has a part in these events happening in Ray's life then I can believe it could be overwhelming to Ray. You can debate God's part in Ray's healing and the Raven's victories (just as in Tebow's last year) but if Ray believes God is working in/through him in some part in this then I believe he is so blown away by it that he responds as could be expected for him, with a lot of passion and humility (outward humility that is) plus he probably feels obligated and/or glad to share with others what he believes is happening here for those others to witness and see God's work. I don’t think it is self promotion but promoting God and what God can do in one’s life. Christians I believe are to testify to the Lord’s work and spread the word. Just as TT does.

I got the feeling watching him that he seemed overwhelmed with joy. Remember, this is a man who at one point probably felt that his career had come to an end. Now, he's preparing for another opportunity to win a Super bowl.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. Extremely well put.

[petro]

Penn State Football is more of a touchy subject.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1vhFnTjia_I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[orangeblueorangeblue]

Brady Quinn blasted Tim for praying in front of camera instead of with team mates. http://nesn.com/2012/02/brady-quinn-blasts-tim-tebow-for-praying-in-front-of-the-camera-instead-of-with-teammates/

Right, I just don't see that as "blasting."

[atlantagator86]

I think some people mischaracterize why some people have a problem with Tebow. I don't think it's his religion itself.

Personally, it never bothered me when Tebow would pray after a TD. I don't think that bothered most people in and of itself. I also really had no issue with what Lewis did last night either. Lot's of players have done a little public display or religion after a TD or home run.

I think the 2 things that rubbed people the wrong way with Tebow was the overt displays of his religion. Particularly when he was being interviewed after a game and his answer to every question practically went into a sermon. I don't think most people like feeling they are being preached to. And of course the other was the non-stop media attention Tebow got from that, like they eye paint and Tebowing.

[tilly]

It is my hope that the Ravens have a 6 point lead with 12 seconds left. I hope the 49ers are in the red zone. I further hope that a pass hits Ray Lewis right in the chest....bounces up in the air and into the waiting arms of a niners offensive lineman. I hope that lineman than runs ray lewis over on his way to the endzone as the clock runs out.

Its the camera shot of Lewis watching the game winning extra point that I look forward to the most....I hope it literally slips through his fingers.

That would really........well........cut like a knife.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Gator Country

[atlg8rfan]

Tim did/does his thing REGARDLESS of the presence of cameras.

RL does his thing BECAUSE of the presence of cameras.

Big difference.

[j7]

I think some people mischaracterize why some people have a problem with Tebow. I don't think it's his religion itself.

Personally, it never bothered me when Tebow would pray after a TD. I don't think that bothered most people in and of itself. I also really had no issue with what Lewis did last night either. Lot's of players have done a little public display or religion after a TD or home run.

I think the 2 things that rubbed people the wrong way with Tebow was the overt displays of his religion. Particularly when he was being interviewed after a game and his answer to every question practically went into a sermon. I don't think most people like feeling they are being preached to. And of course the other was the non-stop media attention Tebow got from that, like they eye paint and Tebowing.

To me and I assume other Christians, there's the rub. Say/do less (i.e. point to the heavens after a score, pray on the field or mention "blessed" or "God" in some context during an interview) and you risk the message not getting through. Say/do too much (being "preachy") and risk turning people off.

It's probably safe to say that Tim can go over the top compared to others in most things he does; football, charity, his non-sex life, the way he treats others, etc. Assuming that to him his true charge is to save people's souls from damnation and it's understandable to me why he goes as far as he does with the message.

[geauxgator1]

To me and I assume other Christians, there's the rub. Say/do less (i.e. point to the heavens after a score, pray on the field or mention "blessed" or "God" in some context during an interview) and you risk the message not getting through. Say/do too much (being "preachy") and risk turning people off.

It's probably safe to say that Tim can go over the top compared to others in most things he does; football, charity, his non-sex life, the way he treats others, etc. Assuming that to him his true charge is to save people's souls from damnation and it's understandable to me why he goes as far as he does with the message.

I think TT tries not to make himself the focus, as do most of the Christian athletes. TT is not preachy or in your face, he just lets you know where he stands gives credit to God, and tries to live a life guided by his values. I think he has done that, but it still can rub some people the wrong way. As long as you take a stand for a belief, you will encounter some criticism along the way. It just goes with the territory.

[msa3]

Tim did/does his thing REGARDLESS of the presence of cameras.

RL does his thing BECAUSE of the presence of cameras.


You don't know that to be the truth in either case. I would imagine Ray Lewis fans feel EXACTLY the same way, just the other way around.

[GatorAvatar]

People who claim their victory was due to God's blessing confuse me. Does that mean God was rooting against the opposing team?

[j7]

Does that mean God was rooting against the opposing team?

God only knows

[g8rboy]

Usually, the claim is thanking God for the abilities bestowed upon the player, not for actual game results

[gator85jd]

Usually, the claim is thanking God for the abilities bestowed upon the player, not for actual game results

Ray has plenty to be thankful for . . . . like beating a double murder rap. His public display is par for his personality and far from humble. Does Ray do mission work in underdeveloped areas of the world, work in a prison ministry or do any other type of service when the cameras aren't running?

[AFCyberGator]

Judging Ray Lewis or Tim Tebow only tells something about those who judge, not who is being judged...and how the media shapes what is considered acceptable behavior. It matters not what we think of their motivations when praying on the field. What does matter is that the media and social networking worlds are shaping what you think of either situation. Neither Ray Lewis nor Tim Tebow is the first athlete to express religious beliefs on the field or show emotion on TV. Ray Lewis is not the first athlete to get a bye in playing to the media, and he will not be the last. He gets a bye because the media has shaped the story of his impending retirement and innocence in the murder trial. Tim Tebow does not get the bye because the media has made the public sick of hearing his name and supposedly forcing religion, even though he has not "earned the right" to do so.

In summary: I blame the media and social networking.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

Judging Ray Lewis or Tim Tebow only tells something about those who judge, not who is being judged

All that needs to be said, really.

[atlantagator86]

To me and I assume other Christians, there's the rub. Say/do less (i.e. point to the heavens after a score, pray on the field or mention "blessed" or "God" in some context during an interview) and you risk the message not getting through. Say/do too much (being "preachy") and risk turning people off.

It's probably safe to say that Tim can go over the top compared to others in most things he does; football, charity, his non-sex life, the way he treats others, etc. Assuming that to him his true charge is to save people's souls from damnation and it's understandable to me why he goes as far as he does with the message.

I completely agree with your second paragraph. I think that for Tebow, "spreading the word" is much more important than football.

That was a conscious choice that Tebow made early on. Tebow put the eye paint out there for everyone to see. Does anyone honestly think Tebow did the eye paint without the intention of it being on TV?! He knew exactly what he was doing. And Tebow is the one who during interviews consciously puts God before his team. And Tebow is the one who does the "Tebowing" pose after a score. I don't think he expected it to become a fad though. And he is the one who announced his celibacy to the world.

Tebow made a very conscious choice to become a somewhat controversial figure. He knew all along that some people would be completely turned off by it while others would embrace it. But he felt like it was more important to spread his message than be liked by everyone.

Anyone who thinks Tebow hasn't exploited the media in trying to get his message out is a little naive. There is really little difference between what Tebow has done and what Lewis did, except that Tebow tries to put the attention on God while Lewis and other players may try to use religion to bring attention to themselves.

Personally, I'm not bothered by either.

[Colin]

Ray Lewis = going to the Super Bowl, again.

Tim Tebow = sitting on the bench, maybe going to the Canadian Football League.

Someone explain to me the power of prayer, please.

[gatorchamp27]

I could care less about all of the antics RL does whether they be genuine or not. All I want to know is if he is truly a changed man and now a man of God then he should have no problem professing the truth as to what happened the night two men were murdered and his role in it. Until then to me he is just a guy who beat a charge and got close to losing it all in his mind and no longer wants to have a negative image. All the good he claims and others claims he does is all for nothing if it is based solely initially on falsehoods and self preservation. It is truly hard to live a righteous life, which is why the phenomenon that is TT is such a spectacular story. I like the way Ray Lewis plays football and his passion for it, I even enjoy some of his speeches but there will always be some form of reservation for what he says, because of what he has done.

[Bushmaster]

Ray Lewis is an attention whore.

[samit23]

Really, though, who blasted Tebow for praying on the field?

Nobody did. Maybe a few critics, but this is more revisionist history than anything.

[g8rfan22]

I think this forum needs one more I hate Ray Lewis thread...

[g8rboy]

Ray Lewis = going to the Super Bowl, again.

Tim Tebow = sitting on the bench, maybe going to the Canadian Football League.

Someone explain to me the power of prayer, please.

i think you may not understand how prayer works

[GATORQUEDOG]

He is an absolute fantastic player. I am not taking a single thing away from him. He is probably the best MLB of all time. He gets his team fired up and I respect the heck out of him. I was just imagining in my head what if Tim had went to the middle of the field to drop down with 50 cameras around him, how would it be received?

Tim does and has used his "fame", the media et all, to spread his message of Christianity.
He had openly and directly said that his "position" allows him to reach masses of people that under normal circumstances would not necessarily be reached.
In that sense, really no different than what Lewis is doing--praising his God and utilizing his fame and the media as a resource to be an evangelist for his faith.

[GrubGator]

Maybe god is leading Tebow to go to Canada where he can become to Canada what Hasselhoff is to Germany! :) Or maybe God has absolutely nothing to do with football or attention mongers

[g8rfan22]

Tim does and has used his "fame", the media et all, to spread his message of Christianity.
He had openly and directly said that his "position" allows him to reach masses of people that under normal circumstances would not necessarily be reached.
In that sense, really no different than what Lewis is doing--praising his God and utilizing his fame and the media as a resource to be an evangelist for his faith.

I agree and have no problem with what either of them do. It's a matter of using your platform. If either of them reach one person by doing so, it's a success. JMO

[rpmGator]

Many of us watched Denver last season and enjoyed the hell out of it.

I didn't watch a single Denver game this season. Tim is fun to watch for me and I will always tune into his games no matter what you think of him.

You can credit his wins to others, you can blame the losses on him alone, yet people love to watch him play.

The great hope against Tim is he doesn't get on the field so he can prove himself. Keep hoping.

[tilly]

Ray Lewis = going to the Super Bowl, again.

Tim Tebow = sitting on the bench, maybe going to the Canadian Football League.

Someone explain to me the power of prayer, please.

Your assuming Tim's prayer was to go to the Super Bowl.

My guess is, his prayer was for God to use him in whatever situation God chooses.

Prayer Answered.

[AFCyberGator]

I think we should step back and listen to brother Tebow's message(s) here. We should not hate Ray Lewis for allegedly getting away with murder or being a vain attention whore. We should be happy that he found his peace...with God...in front of 50000 viewers...in the middle of a football field. We should not hate that Tim Tebow is not the starting QB on a playoff team or that he gets chastised with every little thing he does. We should be happy that he makes enough money to run a foundation that changes the world one kid at a time.

[DawgFanFromAlabam]

When Tim Tebow did it I felt he did it for the glorification of God.

When Ray Lewis does it I feel he does it for the glorification of Ray Lewis.

[Jaggator]

When Tim Tebow did it I felt he did it for the glorification of God.

When Ray Lewis does it I feel he does it for the glorification of Ray Lewis.

This!

[GATORQUEDOG]

When Tim Tebow did it I felt he did it for the glorification of God.

When Ray Lewis does it I feel he does it for the glorification of Ray Lewis.

Well I'm glad God doesn't have you on the "WHO GETS INTO HEAVEN SELECTION COMMITTEE".

[gator85jd]

Well I'm glad God doesn't have you on the "WHO GETS INTO HEAVEN SELECTION COMMITTEE".

How do you know he's not on the committee?

[GATORQUEDOG]

How do you know he's not on the committee?

Because if he is, then he would not have to "feel or guess" concerning another man's faith or his intentions.

[g8rfan22]

Because if he is, then he would not have to "feel or guess" concerning another man's faith or his intentions.

This!!

[RayGator]

When Tim Tebow did it I felt he did it for the glorification of God.

When Ray Lewis does it I feel he does it for the glorification of Ray Lewis.

That exactly sums it up!

[magnafides]

i think you may not understand how prayer works

The irony of this statement is delicious...

Well I'm glad God doesn't have you on the "WHO GETS INTO HEAVEN SELECTION COMMITTEE".

I don't see the problem, he clearly said "I feel"... are people not allowed to have opinions anymore?

[gatordee]

I find it very difficult to watch him living his dream when I feel he stole the dreams that two parents had for their daughter. Was he convicted? No. But neither was OJ and I feel they beat the system. It has become very hard to convict a big time athlete or any famous person for that matter, while your everyday Joe would not have had a chance in hell to beat those charges. This is the ONLY reason I could see fans dislike seeing him enjoying such a win. However, it makes it easy for me to root for SF.

[gator85jd]

Because if he is, then he would not have to "feel or guess" concerning another man's faith or his intentions.

And you know this how?

[GatorAvatar]

I want a study showing what people pray for and what the outcome is.

[atlantagator86]

I find it very difficult to watch him living his dream when I feel he stole the dreams that two parents had for their daughter. Was he convicted? No. But neither was OJ and I feel they beat the system. It has become very hard to convict a big time athlete or any famous person for that matter, while your everyday Joe would not have had a chance in hell to beat those charges. This is the ONLY reason I could see fans dislike seeing him enjoying such a win. However, it makes it easy for me to root for SF.

The problem is that if Ray Lewis had gone to trial with the other 2, he probably wouldn't have been convicted. That's why they were willing to offer him a deal, in hopes that his testimony would strengthen the somewhat weak case against the other 2.

While it was very obvious that Ray Lewis was very much involved in what happened, there were enough holes in the evidence, largely based on actions Ray Lewis took that night to cover the trail, that there was almost no way they would be able to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. The fact that he wasn't convicted does NOT mean he was innocent, just that they didn't have a strong enough case to convict him.

But in Lewis' defense, I don't think his celebrity status played a huge role in his not being convicted the way it did with OJ. In the Lewis case, it had more to do with the things Lewis did to cover his tracks, keeping witnesses from talking and casting enough reasonable doubt.

[msa3]

I find it very difficult to watch him living his dream when I feel he stole the dreams that two parents had for their daughter.

He was implicated in the murder of two men.

I don't like him, I don't like the glorification he receives, but this is inaccurate. To the best of my knowledge, Lewis has never been implicated in the death of a woman.

As for the two men -- I want to be clear about this: They did not deserve to be murdered. -- but they were not alter boys, and it's folly to assume that outside a nightclub at 4 a.m. is not a good place to get into serious trouble.

I do not like the glorification of Ray Lewis one bit. But let's not "Bonfire of the Vanities" the victims here, either. They did not deserve what happened to them, but it's naive to think they played no role in the events.

[born2beagator]

this thread is going to be closed just like the last lewis debate

[born2beagator]

I think this forum needs one more I hate Ray Lewis thread...

No kidding. We get that the majority here doesn't like him. But why start another thread when the last one was closed, and I am assuming the maker suspended for calling those that defended Lewis POSs. Just the fact that you have to title the thread "Touchy Subject" should make you think twice about posting it

[gator85jd]

I want a study showing what people pray for and what the outcome is.

You apparently believe in the vending machine God.

[GatorAvatar]

You apparently believe in the vending machine God.

And you are one of those with 'faith'.

[born2beagator]

And you are one of those with 'faith'.
You just complimented him
Faith is what the entire christian belief in Christ and God centers around.

[GatorAvatar]

You just complimented him
Faith is what the entire christian belief in Christ and God centers around.

Good for him. I have no such blind faith. I believe in hard work, modern medicine, science and fate.

[born2beagator]

Good for him. I have no such blind faith. I believe in hard work, modern medicine, science and fate.

All given to us by God, and we will pray for you btw.
The point is, we all have different beliefs, and I find it funny that you think telling a christian "oh you are one of the ones who has faith" is a knock on them.

anyways, this thread derailed just like the last one, and I am not going to go any further into the religious debate.

[NoahBeanBizzel]

Good for him. I have no such blind faith. I believe in hard work, modern medicine, science and fate.

There's nothing "blind" about believing Christ's testimony. He came down from his throne and turned water into wine. He opened the eyes of the blind. He brought the dead back to life, and then he rose from the dead. He appeared to hundreds of people after he conquered the grave, and THOUSANDS of people witnessed the miracles he performed. Nobody ever denied that he performed the miracles; the problem was by what authority he performed them.

They weren't a collection of cute stories thrown into a book for us to debate. That all really happened, my friend-whether you choose to believe it did or not. If people want put their faith in science, modern medicine and their own intellect, that's fine. I'm trusting in JESUS.

[born2beagator]

If people want put their faith in science, modern medicine and their own intellect, that's fine. I'm trusting in JESUS.

The funny thing is, they really shouldn't be separate.

PS: I think this thread is about to get ugly

[tilly]

Count me as one who is proud to be criticized for my faith in Jesus.

...and I find it ironic that those who criticize faith are themselves showing faith that they are right.

We all live by faith to some extent.

Too Hot here we come...in.... 3...2....1.... ;)

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Gator Country

[NoahBeanBizzel]

The funny thing is, they really shouldn't be separate.

PS: I think this thread is about to get ugly

Oh, I thought about that before I clicked submit. I can only handle so much vanity, though. I let it slide on almost every thread, but at some point you've gotta let it go.

[GatorAvatar]

There's nothing "blind" about believing Christ's testimony. He came down from his throne and turned water into wine. He opened the eyes of the blind. He brought the dead back to life, and then he rose from the dead. He appeared to hundreds of people after he conquered the grave, and THOUSANDS of people witnessed the miracles he performed. Nobody ever denied that he performed the miracles; the problem was by what authority he performed them.

They weren't a collection of cute stories thrown into a book for us to debate. That all really happened, my friend-whether you choose to believe it did or not. If people want put their faith in science, modern medicine and their own intellect, that's fine. I'm trusting in JESUS.

I'm not criticizing for the sake of criticizing. I respectfully disagree that if you pray to a cancer patient, the cancer will go. No it won't. So many people pray for peace in Israel/Palestine, but everyday people die. People pray for poverty to end...it will never cease. I could go on and on...but you get the point.

[Juggernautz]

Ok I know this is a touchy subject, but I have to see if I'm the only one who feels this way. Tim Tebow got blasted and criticized for going to the end zone and praying. Did anyone see what Ray Lewis did? He went to the middle of the field, and pretty much waited until there was 50 cameras around him before he dropped to his knees. This personally drove me nuts! I realize I'm going to get blasted for this post but I am curious what other people though

:shhh:

[born2beagator]

I'm not criticizing for the sake of criticizing. I respectfully disagree that if you pray to a cancer patient, the cancer will go. No it won't. So many people pray for peace in Israel/Palestine, but everyday people die. People pray for poverty to end...it will never cease. I could go on and on...but you get the point.
To put it bluntly, you are wrong. So this person I know who me and my family had prayed for for months on end whose cancer went suddenly into remission (doctors could not explain why) and never came back was a lie? and there are stories like this :http://www.thedenverchannel.com/lifestyle/health/man-says-power-of-prayer-healed-his-cancer

Those probably didn't mean anything for a cynic and skeptic such as yourself since you will write it off as the treatment being successful, so not sure why I bothered, but there you go.

as for Israel, the bible specifically said that they would be persecuted until the Lord's return. The middle east violence is never going to end, not so long as sin is still present in the world.