Teenager Reportedly Used AR-15 to Kill Five in New Mexico

[gator996]

Couple shootings at gun shows this weekend and this...

http://news.yahoo.com/teenager-reportedly-used-ar-15-kill-five-mexico-225610219.html

Teenager Reportedly Used AR-15 to Kill Five in New Mexico
By Connor Simpson | The Atlantic Wire – 17 hrs ago

A 15-year-old was arrested Sunday for killing a family just outside of Albuquerque, New Mexico Saturday evening using the weapon that's dominated much of the gun control conversation -- the AR-15 semi-automatic rifle.

Here's what we know for sure: a family five were found dead in a house in a secluded area just outside of Albuquerque, New Mexico on Saturday night. The bodies included an adult male, and adult female, one juvenile male and two juvenile females . An unidentified 15-year-old was arrested and charged for killing all five people. Several weapons were found inside the house, including a military style assault rifle. Police officials wouldn't disclose any relation between the shooter and the family or any of the identities, either.

Locally, KOB 4 reports the father's name is Greg Griego, a local pastor who works with the fire department, and the shooter's name is Nehemiah Griego. A neighbour told the Associated Press he "has seen a married couple and their two boys and two girls from time to time." KOB also reports police believe the shooter primarily used an AR-15 rifle, the same weapon used by James Holmes in Aurora, Colorado and Adam Lanza in Newtown, Connecticut.

[Lawdog88]

Your point ?

[gatorman_07732]

Well according to this article this 15 year old shot and killed his own family

15-year-old boy suspected of killing parents, 3 kids in New Mexico home

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/01/21/teenage-gunman-kills-5-in-new-mexico-home-officials-say/

Authorities declined to release details of any conversation that the 15-year-old had with investigators, but they said he was the Griegos' son.

I wonder if we will find out that the kid had known mental problems with the with having guns in the house.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Couple shootings at gun shows this weekend and this...

Describe those please.

[Dreamliner]

Isn't it time that the government turned it's attention to the real problem: trying to get people to lose weight ? Honestly, I'll bet it kills more people on an annual basis than assault weapons do.

[gatorman_07732]

Describe those please.

I believe it was meant as a flame

[gator996]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/19/accidental-shooting-gun-show/1847879/

5 hurt in accidental shootings at 3 U.S. gun shows

MEDINA, Ohio (AP) — Accidental shootings at gun shows in North Carolina, Indiana and Ohio left five people injured Saturday, the same day that thousands of gun advocates gathered peacefully at state capitals around the U.S. to rally against stricter firearm limits.

At the Dixie Gun and Knife Show in Raleigh, a 12-gauge shotgun discharged as its owner unzipped its case for a law enforcement officer to check at a security entrance, injuring three people, state Agriculture Department spokesman Brian Long said

In Indianapolis, police said a 54-year-old man was injured when he inadvertently shot himself while leaving a gun show.

Emory L. Cozee was loading his .45-caliber semi-automatic when he shot himself in the hand as he was leaving the Indy 1500 Gun and Knife show at the state fairgrounds, state police said. Loaded personal weapons aren't allowed inside the show.

And in Ohio, a gun dealer in Medina was checking out a semi-automatic handgun he had bought Saturday when he accidentally pulled the trigger, injuring his friend, police said. The gun's magazine had been removed from the firearm, but one round remained in the chamber, police said.

[Lawdog88]

Thank goodness the kid didn't use a Garrand or a .22.

Imagine the registration problems that would cause.

[gator996]

Isn't it time that the government turned it's attention to the real problem: trying to get people to lose weight ? Honestly, I'll bet it kills more people on an annual basis than assault weapons do.


Didn't Boeing take you out of service? :grin:

[The_Graygator]

Couple shootings at gun shows this weekend and this...

http://news.yahoo.com/teenager-reportedly-used-ar-15-kill-five-mexico-225610219.html

Teenager Reportedly Used AR-15 to Kill Five in New Mexico
By Connor Simpson | The Atlantic Wire – 17 hrs ago

A 15-year-old was arrested Sunday for killing a family just outside of Albuquerque, New Mexico Saturday evening using the weapon that's dominated much of the gun control conversation -- the AR-15 semi-automatic rifle.

Here's what we know for sure: a family five were found dead in a house in a secluded area just outside of Albuquerque, New Mexico on Saturday night. The bodies included an adult male, and adult female, one juvenile male and two juvenile females . An unidentified 15-year-old was arrested and charged for killing all five people. Several weapons were found inside the house, including a military style assault rifle. Police officials wouldn't disclose any relation between the shooter and the family or any of the identities, either.

Locally, KOB 4 reports the father's name is Greg Griego, a local pastor who works with the fire department, and the shooter's name is Nehemiah Griego. A neighbour told the Associated Press he "has seen a married couple and their two boys and two girls from time to time." KOB also reports police believe the shooter primarily used an AR-15 rifle, the same weapon used by James Holmes in Aurora, Colorado and Adam Lanza in Newtown, Connecticut.


So a criminal uses an AR - 15 to commit a crime?

I think the moral of this story is... keep the weapons out of the hands of criminals and not law-abiding citizens.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/19/accidental-shooting-gun-show/1847879/

5 hurt in accidental shootings at 3 U.S. gun shows

mmm....that word accidental makes those a bit different than, you know, criminal gun shootings.

[gatorman_07732]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/19/accidental-shooting-gun-show/1847879/

5 hurt in accidental shootings at 3 U.S. gun shows

MEDINA, Ohio (AP) — Accidental shootings at gun shows in North Carolina, Indiana and Ohio left five people injured Saturday, the same day that thousands of gun advocates gathered peacefully at state capitals around the U.S. to rally against stricter firearm limits.

At the Dixie Gun and Knife Show in Raleigh, a 12-gauge shotgun discharged as its owner unzipped its case for a law enforcement officer to check at a security entrance, injuring three people, state Agriculture Department spokesman Brian Long said

In Indianapolis, police said a 54-year-old man was injured when he inadvertently shot himself while leaving a gun show.

Emory L. Cozee was loading his .45-caliber semi-automatic when he shot himself in the hand as he was leaving the Indy 1500 Gun and Knife show at the state fairgrounds, state police said. Loaded personal weapons aren't allowed inside the show.

And in Ohio, a gun dealer in Medina was checking out a semi-automatic handgun he had bought Saturday when he accidentally pulled the trigger, injuring his friend, police said. The gun's magazine had been removed from the firearm, but one round remained in the chamber, police said.

Hardly the flame you intended in your OP.

[scrappygator]

Lanza did not use an AR-15. All victims shot with a pistol.

[gator996]

So a criminal uses an AR - 15 to cimit a crime?

I think the moral of this story is... keep the weapons out of the hands of criminals and not law-abiding citizens.


Not a random criminal...

He was a family member.


New Mexico homeschooled teen Nehemiah Griego accused of murdering family constantly wore camo: neighbors

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/n-m-teen-accused-killing-family-quiet-article-1.1243888

The New Mexico 15-year-old accused of fatally shooting his parents and three innocent siblings constantly wore camouflage gear, neighbors said after the murders rocked the tiny town in the outskirts of Albuquerque.

Nehemiah Griego was homeschooled and wasn’t registered in the local school district, according to KRQE.

A social media profile on the site MeetOne, a website that's similar to Facebook, shows Griego wearing dark military fatigues.

“I’m a fun loving guy who (LIKES) to make (PEOPLE) happy,” the profile reads. “I might be shy but I’ll open up once you get to know me.”

[gator996]

mmm....that word accidental makes those a bit different than, you know, criminal gun shootings.

Accidental? Who cares...

Dead is dead.

So then why should anyone think "responsible" gun owners are all we need.
These folks are dangerous to themselves...and me.

[Lawdog88]

Accidental official police shooting that never made the paper:


In a 1994 homicide case in Pensacola, FL, the Police Department seized a well-worn shotgun at the scene of a homicide and stored it in the police evidence locker. The State charged the defendant with premeditated, First Degree Murder.

Prior to trial, when the firearm was taken out of the locker for examination by the crime scene officer, the shotgun fell over and discharged, blowing a hole in the cement block wall narrowly missing the crime scene officer.

Apparently the police failed to clear the firearm at the scene and because of its decrepit state, it was prone to inadvertent discharge.

The defense was that the shotgun accidentally discharged, without intent to kill. The case was resolved by plea to a lesser charge.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Accidental? Who cares...

Dead is dead.

I do no believe anyone died in those accidental shootings.

In a similar fashion, do you think more people die in accidental shooting every year or that more lives are saved every year by gun defense?

[gatorman_07732]

I do no believe anyone died in those accidental shootings.

In a similar fashion, do you think more people die in accidental shooting every year or that more lives are saved every year by gun defense?

The guy is flat out making stuff up

[gator996]

Hardly the flame you intended in your OP.

You know what my intention was? :laugh:


I already knew they were accidental shootings....

What damn difference does that make?


What it shows is that "supposed" responsible good gun owners are a threat to themselves and others...

[gator996]

I do no believe anyone died in those accidental shootings.

In a similar fashion, do you think more people die in accidental shooting every year or that more lives are saved every year by gun defense?


No one died this past weekend but that's pure luck...nothing else.

I dunno...you have any numbers besides guessing?

Oh yeah, actual numbers are hard to come by because the NRA fights the collection of gun violence data :rolleyes:

[gatorman_07732]

You know what my intention was? :laugh:


I already knew they were accidental shootings....

What damn difference does that make?


What it shows is that "supposed" responsible good gun owners are a threat to themselves and others...

Well you did mix that in with a family murder that took place. The two hardly go together but yet you used it for maximum shock value without any explanation.

[gator996]

Lanza did not use an AR-15. All victims shot with a pistol.


This from Erick Erickson of Red State



Setting the Record Straight: Adam Lanza Did use the Bushmaster AR-15
By: Erick Erickson (Diary) | December 27th, 2012 at 08:12 PM
http://www.redstate.com/2012/12/27/setting-the-record-straight-adam-lanza-did-use-the-bushmaster-ar-15/

The media did a horrible job getting its facts and figures straight during and after the tragedy in Connecticut. Gun control advocates have seized on a lot of information and ignored a lot of information in an effort to push their agenda.

But I’m seeing gun rights supporters do the same. Most troubling, over the past week on radio filling in for Neal Boortz I’ve heard from dozens of callers, tweeters, Facebook friends, and email correspondents assuring me that Adam Lanza never used the AR-15 in his possession. Most people linked to a video purportedly showing the police retrieving the AR-15 from Adam Lanza’s car after the incident.

I don’t blame these people for getting the facts wrong. The media caused a lot of the misinformation in their rush to cover the story. But as the nation begins to set policy (or not) based on this random act of violence, we should all have our facts straight.

The fact is, Adam Lanza used a handgun to take his own life, but he relied on the Bushmaster AR-15 to kill most of the victims. He did use that gun. You don’t have to believe me. Believe Connecticut State Police Lt. Paul Vance:


The primary weapon used in the attack was a “Bushmaster AR-15 assault-type weapon,” said Connecticut State Police Lt. Paul Vance.

Let’s keep to the facts, not the grainy videos on YouTube purporting to show what is not true.

[gator996]

Will you did mix that in with a family murder that took place. The two hardly go together but yet you used it for maximum shock value without any explanation.

I didn't mix anything...

All of these shootings occured this weekend.


Maybe in your mind, for every normal thinking person....

The "thing" they have in common is gun violence and the incredible ease of attaining a gun to commit violence.

Even those who are supposedly "responsible" don't know how to handle the damn things, teenagers seem to have ready access to them, and with loopholes in background checks, registration, & tracking private market sales the police in New Mexico still don't know how the 15 year old acquired the guns.

[gatorman_07732]

I didn't mix anything...

All of these shootings occurred this weekend.


Maybe in your mind, for every normal thinking person....

The "thing" they have in common is gun violence and the incredible ease of attaining a gun to commit violence.

Even those who are supposedly "responsible" don't know how to handle the damn things, teenagers seem to have ready access to them, and with loopholes in background checks, registration, & tracking private market sales the police in New Mexico still don't know how the 15 year old acquired the guns.

You did indeed throw something out there with no source or even an explanation.

[gatorman_07732]

Since Obama took credit for taking down Gaddafi, then he can take responsibility for the proliferation of the weapons to Algeria

Algeria hostage crisis: Most weapons used in attack came from Libya

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/algeria/9814510/Algeria-hostage-crisis-Most-weapons-used-in-attack-came-from-Libya.html

After all, there were yet again more Americans killed or maybe those firearms don't count in your agenda

[gator996]

Since Obama took credit for taking down Gaddafi, then he can take responsibility for the proliferation of the weapons to Algeria



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/algeria/9814510/Algeria-hostage-crisis-Most-weapons-used-in-attack-came-from-Libya.html

After all, there were yet again more Americans killed or maybe those firearms don't count in your agenda


Do you even look at the stuff you link to????

This from your link:

Many of the Islamist terrorists shot their way into the In Amenas compound on Thursday using the AK104 model of Kalashnikov, which was typically used by Libyan rebels in the war against Muammar Gaddafi.

They brought F5 rockets that also surfaced in the Libyan war, said the security source.

The Islamists wore the same type of outfits that Qatar provided to Libyan National Transitional Council rebels by Qatar – yellow flak jackets with brown patches, known as "chocolate chip" camouflage. The garments are copies of ones worn by Americans in the Gulf war.

The terrorists also employed 60mm gun-mortars used by France and Libyan rebels.

Other non-Libyan arms used in the Algerian terror attack included German and Chinese-made Kalashnikovs, classic rocket-propelled grenades and Russian offensive and defensive grenades




Now Obama is supposed to stop foreign gun manufacturers from selling arms to Algeria?


:laugh:

[wargunfan]

Accidental? Who cares...

Dead is dead.

So then why should anyone think "responsible" gun owners are all we need.
These folks are dangerous to themselves...and me.

500 people killed in auto accidents this weekend. Dead is dead.

[gatorman_07732]

Do you even look at the stuff you link to????

This from your link:

Many of the Islamist terrorists shot their way into the In Amenas compound on Thursday using the AK104 model of Kalashnikov, which was typically used by Libyan rebels in the war against Muammar Gaddafi.

They brought F5 rockets that also surfaced in the Libyan war, said the security source.

The Islamists wore the same type of outfits that Qatar provided to Libyan National Transitional Council rebels by Qatar – yellow flak jackets with brown patches, known as "chocolate chip" camouflage. The garments are copies of ones worn by Americans in the Gulf war.

The terrorists also employed 60mm gun-mortars used by France and Libyan rebels.

Other non-Libyan arms used in the Algerian terror attack included German and Chinese-made Kalashnikovs, classic rocket-propelled grenades and Russian offensive and defensive grenades




Now Obama is supposed to stop foreign gun manufacturers from selling arms to Algeria?


:laugh:

The report concluded specifically say most weapons used in Algeria came from Libya. What part of that don't you understand?

Most of the weapons used by al Qaeda-linked militants to storm a gas facility in southeastern Algeria came from Libya, the Daily Telegraph has learned.

Nothing was secured after Gaddafi was taken down. How about the firearms that he gave the Mexican drug dealers? This Obama is quite the proliferater :grin:

[gator996]

500 people killed in auto accidents this weekend. Dead is dead.


Besides the fact automobiles & guns are inherently different products and aren't truly comparitive...we do regulate autombile use to limit the danger to the public.

Why not guns?

Link to that auto death number please...

This is what I could find...

http://www.edgarsnyder.com/car-accident/car-accident-statistics.html

"The number of highway deaths fell to 32,885 in 2010. It’s the lowest number since 1949."


That's less than 100 a day...so where did your 500 come from?


Let me take a wild guess...the same place you sit down on? :joecool:

[The_Graygator]

Not a random criminal...

He was a family member.


New Mexico homeschooled teen Nehemiah Griego accused of murdering family constantly wore camo: neighbors

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/n-m-teen-accused-killing-family-quiet-article-1.1243888

The New Mexico 15-year-old accused of fatally shooting his parents and three innocent siblings constantly wore camouflage gear, neighbors said after the murders rocked the tiny town in the outskirts of Albuquerque.

Nehemiah Griego was homeschooled and wasn’t registered in the local school district, according to KRQE.

A social media profile on the site MeetOne, a website that's similar to Facebook, shows Griego wearing dark military fatigues.

“I’m a fun loving guy who (LIKES) to make (PEOPLE) happy,” the profile reads. “I might be shy but I’ll open up once you get to know me.”



Oh, so Adam Lanza wasn't a criminal because he stole his mother's weapons, killed her with them, and then committed a slaughter?

Thanks for clearing that up. :roll:

[The_Graygator]

Lanza did not use an AR-15. All victims shot with a pistol.


Ban all pistols!

~sarcasm intended~

[The_Graygator]

500 people killed in auto accidents this weekend. Dead is dead.

Ban all vehicles!

[wygator]

Besides the fact automobiles & guns are inherently different products and aren't truly comparitive...we do regulate autombile use to limit the danger to the public.

Why not guns?

Link to that auto death number please...

This is what I could find...

http://www.edgarsnyder.com/car-accident/car-accident-statistics.html

"The number of highway deaths fell to 32,885 in 2010. It’s the lowest number since 1949."


That's less than 100 a day...so where did your 500 come from?


Let me take a wild guess...the same place you sit down on? :joecool:

Autos don't appear to be regulated to the same extent. There is no National Automobile Registry to which auto sales must be reported. People don't seem to concerned about an "auto show" exception.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't even the lower figure for auto deaths much higher than gun deaths?

[gator996]

Oh, so Adam Lanza wasn't a criminal because he stole his mother's weapons, killed her with them, and then committed a slaughter?

Thanks for clearing that up. :roll:


I guess that wasn't clear enough for you....

This is not about the Lanza shooting.

You responded to the OP which is about a different shooting this weekend in New Mexico and claimed it was a criminal who killed that family.

I responded that it wasn't a random criminal...it was their son.


So the moral of your story doesn't seem to apply

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

The "thing" they have in common is gun violence and the incredible ease of attaining a gun to commit violence.


You describe a gun accident as gun violence?

And describe for us why "the incredible ease of attaining" is relevant. So is attaining a bat. Or knife.

And finally, describe for us why you really think, given the guns laws today, why it is easy to "attain" a gun.

[gatormoe1]

Of course this happened, since the Government screwed up the Sandy Hook shooting in regards to the bush master being used, they needed some type of ammunition to add to this misguided war against assault rifles.

[gator996]

Autos don't appear to be regulated to the same extent. There is no National Automobile Registry to which auto sales must be reported. People don't seem to concerned about an "auto show" exception.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't even the lower figure for auto deaths much higher than gun deaths?


Let me explain why the comparison isn't valid...

Inherent purpose of the two products are completely different.

Automobiles are for transport but in their use deaths occur.
So, we regulate them from a safety standpoint to try an minimize the hazard.

I would argue that autos are much more highly regulated...

All of the traffic laws that exist is regulation of autos inc speed, right of way, etc.
The user must be reliscensed on a regular schedule
The chain of ownership of a vehicle is maintained by the govt
National safety standards exist for the product


On the other hand, you have guns...sole purpose is to kill people

And the argument for regulating that product is that it should be less than automobile regulation?

:huh:


The 2nd ammendment provides for the right to bear arms...

...does that mean any arms?


Should you have the right to own a grenande launcher, bomb, or land mine too?

[Spurffelbow833]

Isn't it time that the government turned it's attention to the real problem: trying to get people to lose weight ? Honestly, I'll bet it kills more people on an annual basis than assault weapons do.

There aren't any laws protecting fat ownership. If there were, they'd be all over it.

[gatorman_07732]

There aren't any laws protecting fat ownership. If there were, they'd be all over it.

Chris Christie is the Illuminati to be consulted :grin:

[gator996]

You describe a gun accident as gun violence?


Yes.
You don't?

What is it when your next door neighbor while cleaning his gun...it goes off and shoots your kid in the head?

That isn't gun violence? :laugh:

How about the kid hit on a city playground by a stray bullet?

In your opinion, gun violence is only when the bullet hits its intended target?


And describe for us why "the incredible ease of attaining" is relevant. So is attaining a bat. Or knife.


A little harder to kill in number, or by accident, with bat or knife versus gun.

The ability to attain a gun by teenage kids seems quite easy



And finally, describe for us why you really think, given the guns laws today, why it is easy to "attain" a gun.

You have the money you can buy on in the private market, no questions asked, on ownership trail...

...and in S Florida can take about 5 minutes.

Armslist.com sells just about every damn gun you could want.

[gatormoe1]

You have the money you can buy on in the private market, no questions asked, on ownership trail...

...and in S Florida can take about 5 minutes.

Armslist.com sells just about every damn gun you could want.

And criminals can and will keep getting any type of gun they want, unregistered and cheap off the streets.

But hey, lets disarm law abiding citizens instead... Great idea. :roll:

[gator996]

The report concluded specifically say most weapons used in Algeria came from Libya. What part of that don't you understand?

What I don't understand about your point is what do you expect Obama to do about foreign manufactured guns being used in a foreign country?

Do I need to remind you that Libya was a NATO action.
We didn't invade Libya...We don't "own" Libya...

Your criticism is illogical.


Nothing was secured after Gaddafi was taken down. How about the firearms that he gave the Mexican drug dealers? This Obama is quite the proliferater :grin:


It was a NATO action not a unilateral American one...go complain to the heads of NATO, not the POTUS.

[gator996]

And criminals can and will keep getting any type of gun they want, unregistered and cheap off the streets.

But hey, lets disarm law abiding citizens instead... Great idea. :roll:


Registration, background checks, madated reporting of all gun manufacture, sales, transfers, lost/theft will reduce straw purchases because we track weapons when they are bought "new" but after that we stop tracking ownership.

If you change the law, when a gun ends up in a crime and law enforcement tracks the gun back to the "straw" purchaser ("new gun" registered owner) if he hasn't reported that gun was sold, transfered, or "stolen" then that straw man is going to go to jail.

And shouldn't he?

He's selling guns to criminals and the laws allow him to sell them without recording anything about the secondary buyer...

He simply says the gun in question was lost or stolen and he's off the hook.


Make the straw purchaser an accessory to the crime and it will cut down the number of people who will be willing to sell guns to anyone they meet on the internet.


Aren't for keeping the guns out of the hands of criminals?


Well how do you do that without tracking the secondary market sale of guns or doing background checks for all sales?

[mdgator05]

Oh, so Adam Lanza wasn't a criminal because he stole his mother's weapons, killed her with them, and then committed a slaughter?

Thanks for clearing that up. :roll:

Post facto he was a criminal. Was he a criminal before he did those things? How do you keep guns out of the hands of people who are yet to have committed a crime?

People are criminals based on committing a criminal act. They are not born with a neon sign attached to their head saying "criminal."

[wargunfan]

Besides the fact automobiles & guns are inherently different products and aren't truly comparitive...we do regulate autombile use to limit the danger to the public.

Why not guns?

Link to that auto death number please...

This is what I could find...

http://www.edgarsnyder.com/car-accident/car-accident-statistics.html

"The number of highway deaths fell to 32,885 in 2010. It’s the lowest number since 1949."


That's less than 100 a day...so where did your 500 come from?


Let me take a wild guess...the same place you sit down on? :joecool:

Do you work to miss a point or does it come naturally. Guns are already heavily regulated. Do a little research or better yet buy a gun and see what you have to go through. Gun accidents are going to happen. Get used to it. Autos are regulated. Auto accidents are going to occur. Get used to it. The variable is humans. Criminals will always have access to guns easy and cheap. Gun laws will not change that. You already know all of the above so the question is do you debate with honesty and integrity or to you just spew biased crap? Most of us know which. Look around you and count the posters who agree with the tripe you post.

[gatormoe1]

Registration, background checks, madated reporting of all gun manufacture, sales, transfers, lost/theft will reduce straw purchases because we track weapons when they are bought "new" but after that we stop tracking ownership.

If you change the law, when a gun ends up in a crime and law enforcement tracks the gun back to the "straw" purchaser ("new gun" registered owner) if he hasn't reported that gun was sold, transfered, or "stolen" then that straw man is going to go to jail.

And shouldn't he?

He's selling guns to criminals and the laws allow him to sell them without recording anything about the secondary buyer...

He simply says the gun in question was lost or stolen and he's off the hook.


Make the straw purchaser an accessory to the crime and it will cut down the number of people who will be willing to sell guns to anyone they meet on the internet.


Aren't for keeping the guns out of the hands of criminals?


Well how do you do that without tracking the guns?

Im all for tracking guns, reporting them stolen and/or sold. Im all for background and mental checks. I'm even for tougher laws at gun shows.

What I will NEVER be down for is banning assault rifles and limiting mags. The right to have guns in this country was to protect ourselves from a tyrannical government. If that does happen and we aren't equipped, we will not stand a chance. AR's account for only 5% of gun murders each year. They ARE NOT the problem.

[mdgator05]

Do you work to miss a point or does it come naturally. Guns are already heavily regulated. Do a little research or better yet buy a gun and see what you have to go through. Gun accidents are going to happen. Get used to it. Autos are regulated. Auto accidents are going to occur. Get used to it. The variable is humans. Criminals will always have access to guns easy and cheap. Gun laws will not change that. You already know all of the above so the question is do you debate with honesty and integrity or to you just spew biased crap? Most of us know which. Look around you and count the posters who agree with the tripe you post.

Okay so lets regulate guns like we regulate cars. They all have to be registered with the state every year. They are authorized for use by only a select set of people. You have to prove to the state that you are capable of using the item. Transfers are all documented by the state to ensure the legality of the transfer and the capability of the purchaser to operate the product.

Deal?

[Minister_of_Information]

Okay so lets regulate guns like we regulate cars. They all have to be registered with the state every year. They are authorized for use by only a select set of people. You have to prove to the state that you are capable of using the item.

Deal?

Only on public roads, where driving is a privilege not a right.

[wargunfan]

Okay so lets regulate guns like we regulate cars. They all have to be registered with the state every year. They are authorized for use by only a select set of people. You have to prove to the state that you are capable of using the item. Transfers are all documented by the state to ensure the legality of the transfer and the capability of the purchaser to operate the product.

Deal?

Tell you what, when cars are protected in the Constitution and can be used to prevent the tyranny of the state let's talk about it.

[wgbgator]

My car prevents state tyranny. That was a non standard feature though.

[gator996]

Im all for tracking guns, reporting them stolen and/or sold. Im all for background and mental checks. I'm even for tougher laws at gun shows.

What I will NEVER be down for is banning assault rifles and limiting mags. The right to have guns in this country was to protect ourselves from a tyrannical government. If that does happen and we aren't equipped, we will not stand a chance. AR's account for only 5% of gun murders each year. They ARE NOT the problem.


The gun lobby isn't as liberal as you...they want none of it

I don't want to ban the assault rifle but I am for limiting mags to some rational size


Bombs, land mines, rocket launchers don't kill alot of people in this country currently either...

Should all of those weapons be legal also?

Unregulated?

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

You have the money you can buy on in the private market, no questions asked, on ownership trail...

...and in S Florida can take about 5 minutes.

Armslist.com sells just about every damn gun you could want.

So?

And I believe that internet sites like armlist.com, gunbroker.com and gunsamerica.com all require that the guns sold on the website to be delivered to a FFL dealer for pick-up. Which requires a background check.

You seem to know so little about guns and gun ownership, yet you pretend to speak for others on the matter.

[gator996]

Tell you what, when cars are protected in the Constitution and can be used to prevent the tyranny of the state let's talk about it.


Auto ownership isn't part of the pursuit of happiness?

And I would think if the "tyranny" of state ever came after you a automobile might become a very strategic weapon in fighting the state.


So, let's talk about it. :ninja:

[mdgator05]

The gun lobby isn't as liberal as you...they want none of it

I don't want to ban the assault rifle but I am for limiting mags to some rational size


Bombs, land mines, rocket launchers don't kill alot of people in this country currently either...

Should all of those weapons be legal also?

Unregulated?

Based on the logic being used here, they should absolutely be legal. After all, they could all be used to prevent state tyranny and are part of a well-regulated militia. The word gun is never in a Constitution. Just arms. So by the logic that "well-regulated" should not involve the banning of weapons capable of massive amounts of murder in short time, I see no reason that the government should prevent ownership of bombs, land mines, and rocket launchers.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Okay so lets regulate guns like we regulate cars. ?

Actually, let's regulate cars like we do guns;

to wit;

To buy or operate a standard car, one will have to be 18 years old. Under that age, adult supervision will be mandatory. This means the adult must be in the vehicle with the underage driver.

To buy a sports car, you will have to be 21. A "Sports car" will be defined as any combination of any two of the following: 2 doors instead of 4, spoked rims not requiring hubcaps, aerodynamic effects such as spoilers or air dams, a wheelbase under 100 inches, a manual transmission, a curb weight under 3000 lbs, fiberglass or other non-metal construction, or painted logos.

For every purchase, you will have to fill out a questionnaire confirming you're a US citizen, do not use drugs or abuse alcohol, have never had a conviction for alcohol related incidents or reckless driving. Lying on this form will be punishable by 10 years in prison and/or a $10,000 fine.

New cars will only be purchased from Federal Automobile Licensees who must provide fingerprints, proof of character, secure storage for all vehicles, and who must call the Federal Bureau of Motor Vehicles to verify your information before purchase. They may approve or decline or delay the sale. If they decline, you may appeal the decision in writing to a review board. If they delay, it becomes an approval automatically after 10 days. However, the dealer may decline to complete such a sale in case of later problems.

Additionally, the purchase of more than two cars in a given year will require signing an understanding that buying cars in order to resell them without a license is a crime. There is an 11% federal excise tax on all new vehicles, plus any state or local tax.

Federal Automobile Licensees must agree to submit to 24/7/365, unannounced, unscheduled searches of their entire homes, businesses and any relates properties and personal effects to be named later.

Then you will be eligible to take your drivers' license test to determine your eligibility to operate on the street. Rules will vary by state, with some states requiring proof of need to own a vehicle for business purposes, and up to 40 hours of professional education. Also, not all states will accept all licenses. You will need to keep track of this information. Additionally, speed limits will not be posted. It is your responsibility to research the driving laws in each area you wish to travel through. Some communities may not allow out of state vehicles, sports cars, or even any vehicles at all. Violation of these laws will result in confiscation and destruction of your vehicle by crushing.

To have a turbocharger, supercharger (External Engine Compression Devices) or a muffler will require an application to the Federal Bureau of Motor Vehicles. A $2000 tax stamp will be required for these High Performance Vehicles. Your request must also be signed by the local chief law enforcement officer, and you must provide fingerprints. If approved in 10-16 weeks, you will be responsible for keeping your High Performance Vehicle in secure storage, and request permission in writing to take it out of state. You will need to carry this documentation with you. There are 13 states that do not allow possession of High Performance Vehicles. Be sure you are aware of those laws before planning your trips. (But really, what do you need such a vehicle for anyway? Who really needs to drive that fast? You must willingly accept and adhere to the socially accepted idea that you are inherently evil for merely possessing such a fast, high powered automobile.)

Additionally, superchargers and turbochargers must be manufactured before June 1, 1986. They may be sold and refitted by a FAL who also has a Special Occupational Tax license authorizing him to work on these. New superchargers, however, are a violation of federal law, except for use by the police or military, or specific government contractors. Expect to pay $15-$30,000 each for these items. Mufflers will only cost from $250-$1000, plus the $2000 stamp. However, once the muffler is damaged, it must be disposed of by cutting it into three pieces. Failure to do this may result in your family going through the next decade only knowing you in a prison jumpsuit and all your bank accounts seized and never replenished.

Imported sports cars will be prohibited. You may purchase other items from foreign manufacturers, but your automobile is in a special class of prohibition due to its inherently evil and sinister nature. The frames may be imported, cut into three pieces, and reassembled with US made engines and suspensions, as long as 60% of the parts are American. Shortly, though, the Transmission Loophole will be closed. The purpose of allowing imports is for spare parts, not to build more destructive "race vehicles.” Transmissions will have to be US made.

Repairs may only be conducted by a licensed FAL, who will send a truck to retrieve your vehicle. It must be a flatbed type truck, winch/dolly trucks are not allowed, under 10/$10,000 penalty. You may work on your own vehicle, but any repair that exceeds emission or performance standards will be subject to federal criminal charges. And violation of this reasonable regulation could result in not only your imprisonment and the confiscation of your assets but imprisonment of any employee or family member who was insane enough to repair your “race car” for you.

Be aware that an existing HPV may have multiple HP Features. A new HPV will require a license for each feature you wish to add to it—one each for muffler or external engine compression device. And you must request and receive, in writing, permission from the federal, state and local governing authorities prior to making such modifications.

Converting a standard car to a sports car will require payment of a $2000 tax, even if no HP features are added. However, if an FAL/SOT does the conversion on a new frame before the vehicle leaves their premises, it will only be a $50 tax. You will need to carry this documentation in the glove box at all times, the mere failure of which alone can result in an arrest and possible conviction.

Michael Williamson
(http://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/blog/item/we-need-to-regulate-cars-the-way-we-regulate-guns) (not me)

[wargunfan]

My car prevents state tyranny. That was a non standard feature though.

You mean it tried to run over you???!!! Gasp! :grin:

[wargunfan]

So?

And I believe that internet sites like armlist.com, gunbroker.com and gunsamerica.com all require that the guns sold on the website to be delivered to a FFL dealer for pick-up. Which requires a background check.

You seem to know so little about guns and gun ownership, yet you pretend to speak for others on the matter.

When has ignorance ever prevented a liberal from pontificating on a subject and making a fool of himself?

[wgbgator]

You mean it tried to run over you???!!! Gasp! :grin:

You're thinking of Toyotas. My car runs on freedom, used Toby Keith cds and the blood of bald eagles. :grin:

[wargunfan]

You're thinking of Toyotas. My car runs on freedom, used Toby Keith cds and the blood of bald eagles. :grin:

Then how, pray tell, does it recognize you??

[gator996]

So?

And I believe that internet sites like armlist.com, gunbroker.com and gunsamerica.com all require that the guns sold on the website to be delivered to a FFL dealer for pick-up. Which requires a background check.

You seem to know so little about guns and gun ownership, yet you pretend to speak for others on the matter.


Wrong.

http://www.armslist.com/info/faqs


"ARMSLIST is purely a service provider that allow sellers to list items. As such, ARMSLIST can not and will not be a party in transactions. It is the sole responsibility of the buyer and seller to conduct safe and legal transactions. "

[mdgator05]

Actually, let's regulate cars like we do guns;

to wit;

To buy or operate a standard car, one will have to be 18 years old. Under that age, adult supervision will be mandatory. This means the adult must be in the vehicle with the underage driver.

To buy a sports car, you will have to be 21. A "Sports car" will be defined as any combination of any two of the following: 2 doors instead of 4, spoked rims not requiring hubcaps, aerodynamic effects such as spoilers or air dams, a wheelbase under 100 inches, a manual transmission, a curb weight under 3000 lbs, fiberglass or other non-metal construction, or painted logos.

For every purchase, you will have to fill out a questionnaire confirming you're a US citizen, do not use drugs or abuse alcohol, have never had a conviction for alcohol related incidents or reckless driving. Lying on this form will be punishable by 10 years in prison and/or a $10,000 fine.

New cars will only be purchased from Federal Automobile Licensees who must provide fingerprints, proof of character, secure storage for all vehicles, and who must call the Federal Bureau of Motor Vehicles to verify your information before purchase. They may approve or decline or delay the sale. If they decline, you may appeal the decision in writing to a review board. If they delay, it becomes an approval automatically after 10 days. However, the dealer may decline to complete such a sale in case of later problems.

Additionally, the purchase of more than two cars in a given year will require signing an understanding that buying cars in order to resell them without a license is a crime. There is an 11% federal excise tax on all new vehicles, plus any state or local tax.

Federal Automobile Licensees must agree to submit to 24/7/365, unannounced, unscheduled searches of their entire homes, businesses and any relates properties and personal effects to be named later.

Then you will be eligible to take your drivers' license test to determine your eligibility to operate on the street. Rules will vary by state, with some states requiring proof of need to own a vehicle for business purposes, and up to 40 hours of professional education. Also, not all states will accept all licenses. You will need to keep track of this information. Additionally, speed limits will not be posted. It is your responsibility to research the driving laws in each area you wish to travel through. Some communities may not allow out of state vehicles, sports cars, or even any vehicles at all. Violation of these laws will result in confiscation and destruction of your vehicle by crushing.

To have a turbocharger, supercharger (External Engine Compression Devices) or a muffler will require an application to the Federal Bureau of Motor Vehicles. A $2000 tax stamp will be required for these High Performance Vehicles. Your request must also be signed by the local chief law enforcement officer, and you must provide fingerprints. If approved in 10-16 weeks, you will be responsible for keeping your High Performance Vehicle in secure storage, and request permission in writing to take it out of state. You will need to carry this documentation with you. There are 13 states that do not allow possession of High Performance Vehicles. Be sure you are aware of those laws before planning your trips. (But really, what do you need such a vehicle for anyway? Who really needs to drive that fast? You must willingly accept and adhere to the socially accepted idea that you are inherently evil for merely possessing such a fast, high powered automobile.)

Additionally, superchargers and turbochargers must be manufactured before June 1, 1986. They may be sold and refitted by a FAL who also has a Special Occupational Tax license authorizing him to work on these. New superchargers, however, are a violation of federal law, except for use by the police or military, or specific government contractors. Expect to pay $15-$30,000 each for these items. Mufflers will only cost from $250-$1000, plus the $2000 stamp. However, once the muffler is damaged, it must be disposed of by cutting it into three pieces. Failure to do this may result in your family going through the next decade only knowing you in a prison jumpsuit and all your bank accounts seized and never replenished.

Imported sports cars will be prohibited. You may purchase other items from foreign manufacturers, but your automobile is in a special class of prohibition due to its inherently evil and sinister nature. The frames may be imported, cut into three pieces, and reassembled with US made engines and suspensions, as long as 60% of the parts are American. Shortly, though, the Transmission Loophole will be closed. The purpose of allowing imports is for spare parts, not to build more destructive "race vehicles.” Transmissions will have to be US made.

Repairs may only be conducted by a licensed FAL, who will send a truck to retrieve your vehicle. It must be a flatbed type truck, winch/dolly trucks are not allowed, under 10/$10,000 penalty. You may work on your own vehicle, but any repair that exceeds emission or performance standards will be subject to federal criminal charges. And violation of this reasonable regulation could result in not only your imprisonment and the confiscation of your assets but imprisonment of any employee or family member who was insane enough to repair your “race car” for you.

Be aware that an existing HPV may have multiple HP Features. A new HPV will require a license for each feature you wish to add to it—one each for muffler or external engine compression device. And you must request and receive, in writing, permission from the federal, state and local governing authorities prior to making such modifications.

Converting a standard car to a sports car will require payment of a $2000 tax, even if no HP features are added. However, if an FAL/SOT does the conversion on a new frame before the vehicle leaves their premises, it will only be a $50 tax. You will need to carry this documentation in the glove box at all times, the mere failure of which alone can result in an arrest and possible conviction.

Michael Williamson
(http://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/blog/item/we-need-to-regulate-cars-the-way-we-regulate-guns) (not me)

Many states have increased driving ages due to issues with young drivers.

The need for insurance, which is mandated by government, essentially causes number 2 (most high end sports cars are not insurable for those under 21).

We do pull licenses for the use of a car with alcohol all the time. We suspend licenses and revoke licenses (as well as put people in jail). I wouldn't object at all to a questionnaire as part of getting or renewing a license.

Guns are not sold in this manner. I wouldn't mind guns being sold in this manner, but many guns are sold from private owner to private owners. These sales do not contain background checks, which is one of the proposals being advanced right now.

We do consent to searches of our cars by law enforcement, upon penalty of impounding the car through operation of cars.

Car repairs are done with limited risk. However, you are not allowed to make many modifications to cars. They are illegal and are punishable both by losing the car and fines and potential jail time.

And you do have to keep your car registration on you at all times or be given a government fine for failing to do so.

So many of those restrictions already exist. And as I said, the state keeps much better track of cars than guns. So in a lot of ways, cars are far more regulated than guns.

[gator996]

When has ignorance ever prevented a liberal from pontificating on a subject and making a fool of himself?



http://www.armslist.com/info/faqs

ARMSLIST is purely a service provider that allow sellers to list items. As such, ARMSLIST can not and will not be a party in transactions. It is the sole responsibility of the buyer and seller to conduct safe and legal transactions.


I usually don't go to the personal level but you want to tell me who's ignorant & a fool on the responsibilities required on armslist?

:laugh:

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Wrong.

http://www.armslist.com/info/faqs


"ARMSLIST is purely a service provider that allow sellers to list items. As such, ARMSLIST can not and will not be a party in transactions. It is the sole responsibility of the buyer and seller to conduct safe and legal transactions. "

In order for the gun to be shipped to you, it has to be shipped to a FFL dealer.

[wygator]

Let me explain why the comparison isn't valid...

Inherent purpose of the two products are completely different.

Automobiles are for transport but in their use deaths occur.
So, we regulate them from a safety standpoint to try an minimize the hazard.

I would argue that autos are much more highly regulated...

All of the traffic laws that exist is regulation of autos inc speed, right of way, etc.
The user must be reliscensed on a regular schedule
The chain of ownership of a vehicle is maintained by the govt
National safety standards exist for the product


On the other hand, you have guns...sole purpose is to kill people

And the argument for regulating that product is that it should be less than automobile regulation?

:huh:


The 2nd ammendment provides for the right to bear arms...

...does that mean any arms?


Should you have the right to own a grenande launcher, bomb, or land mine too?

There's your major flaw in leading to your conclusions. The sole purpose of guns is NOT to kill people. Certainly guns CAN kill people, but it is hardly their sole purpose.

Most people use guns recreationally for target shooting and hunting.

The primary purpose of autos is transportation, but they can and do kill lots of people as well.

When guns are used for self-defense, they often do not kill people. In fact, there were two different incidents in Casper recently when a concealed carry person showed their firearm in the presence of an armed criminal and in each case the criminal fled.

No one was hurt, either the criminal or the potential victims.

[GatorNorth]

The gun debate has become a silly refrain by 2 sides unwilling to compromise on anything, much like the rest of Washington and most posters on this board. So it becomes a contest of who can type the loudest.

I don't even think most NRA members think assault weapons should be in our closets, they're just avoiding the slippery regulatory slope and maintaining their fundraising ability. It's an economic argument wrapped in a flag.

And the anti-gun crowd knows that its ability to obtain broad regulatory controls is very limited, but if you don't ask you don't get.

As a result, posters on this board prattle on ad nauseum about all libs being idiots or all conservatives advocating murder. It chills all real debate and just grows tiresome.

Criminals will always break the law but that doesnt mean a reasonable regulation of guns isn't smart. Geez, the 2d amendment itself has a reasonable component built into its language regarding the militia. Common sense would say the same should apply to our homes.

And Americans will always be allowed to have their guns. It's as fundamental as free speech and due process, but that doesn't mean the kid next door should be able to buty an UZI without some prerequsites.

How hard is it really to figure this out if both sides stopped the posturing, labeling and name calling?

[cocodrilo]

Teenager Reportedly Used AR-15 to Kill Five in New Mexico


It looks like the black ops people are on a roll. Or perhaps I should say a road show. Look out, they may be coming to a town near you.

[wargunfan]

http://www.armslist.com/info/faqs

ARMSLIST is purely a service provider that allow sellers to list items. As such, ARMSLIST can not and will not be a party in transactions. It is the sole responsibility of the buyer and seller to conduct safe and legal transactions.


I usually don't go to the personal level but you want to tell me who's ignorant & a fool on the responsibilities required on armslist?

:laugh:

Tell you what, any fool can go a read up on rules. I have bought and sold rifles and pistols for over forty years. I am thoroughly familiar with the rules of transfer for firearms. I have fired tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition with all kinds of firearms safely and without incident. I can field strip and service most firearms. I have taken numerous firearms safety courses and deescalation courses. I have a concealed weapons permit and have been fingerprinted and passed hundreds of background checks. I have a library of federal firearms statutes. I don't think some butthurt liberal can teach me anything I need to know about firearms or rules. :grin:

[wargunfan]

The gun debate has become a silly refrain by 2 sides unwilling to compromise on anything, much like the rest of Washington and most posters on this board. So it becomes a contest of who can type the loudest.

I don't even think most NRA members think assault weapons should be in our closets, they're just avoiding the slippery regulatory slope and maintaining their fundraising ability. It's an economic argument wrapped in a flag.

And the anti-gun crowd knows that its ability to obtain broad regulatory controls is very limited, but if you don't ask you don't get.

As a result, posters on this board prattle on ad nauseum about all libs being idiots or all conservatives advocating murder. It chills all real debate and just grows tiresome.

Criminals will always break the law but that doesnt mean a reasonable regulation of guns isn't smart. Geez, the 2d amendment itself has a reasonable component built into its language regarding the militia. Common sense would say the same should apply to our homes.

And Americans will always be allowed to have their guns. It's as fundamental as free speech and due process, but that doesn't mean the kid next door should be able to buty an UZI without some prerequsites.

How hard is it really to figure this out if both sides stopped the posturing, labeling and name calling?

Right there you lose your credibility. No government "allows" a citizen to have a firearm. I know what you're trying to say but it's really about passing ineffective laws which do nothing to protect children. So we wonder about the real agenda.
We'll stop calling out the liberals when they stop trying to tamper with the right to keep and bear arms. And by the way, the very idea that a government "allows" a citizen to have a firearm is a liberal lie that we totally reject.

[gator996]

Tell you what, any fool can go a read up on rules. I have bought and sold rifles and pistols for over forty years. I am thoroughly familiar with the rules of transfer for firearms. I have fired tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition with all kinds of firearms safely and without incident. I can field strip and service most firearms. I have taken numerous firearms safety courses and deescalation courses. I have a concealed weapons permit and have been fingerprinted and passed hundreds of background checks. I have a library of federal firearms statutes. I don't think some butthurt liberal can teach me anything I need to know about firearms or rules. :grin:


That's all well and good...

But you were wrong on this point.

I was asked how easy it was to get a gun in S Florida and I said 5 minutes on armslist.

You don't agree?

[gator996]

There's your major flaw in leading to your conclusions. The sole purpose of guns is NOT to kill people. Certainly guns CAN kill people, but it is hardly their sole purpose.

Most people use guns recreationally for target shooting and hunting.

The primary purpose of autos is transportation, but they can and do kill lots of people as well.

When guns are used for self-defense, they often do not kill people. In fact, there were two different incidents in Casper recently when a concealed carry person showed their firearm in the presence of an armed criminal and in each case the criminal fled.

No one was hurt, either the criminal or the potential victims.


If those were the primary purposes then live ammunition wouldn't really be necessary at all would it?

Certainly not for target practice...

And how about we let hunting guns only shoot tranquilizers....


Stop being ridiculous here...Guns are made to kill things. :dead:

[gator996]

Right there you lose your credibility. No government "allows" a citizen to have a firearm. I know what you're trying to say but it's really about passing ineffective laws which do nothing to protect children. So we wonder about the real agenda.
We'll stop calling out the liberals when they stop trying to tamper with the right to keep and bear arms. And by the way, the very idea that a government "allows" a citizen to have a firearm is a liberal lie that we totally reject.


OK, let's talk real agendas...


Please someone from the gun advocate side please answer this...


Since the 2nd ammendment provides for the right to bear arms....

What is permissable as "arms"?
Is any type of armanent permissable in your opinion?

[MichiGator2002]

OK, let's talk real agendas...

Please someone from the gun advocate side please answer this...

Since the 2nd ammendment provides for the right to bear arms....

What is permissable as "arms"?
Is any type of armanent permissable in your opinion?

What is permissible as "speech"? What makes something the "press"? What qualifies as a religion? All the same question, all the same answer.

Which, in case you are greeting it with a blank stare, is that there are no inherent limits to the right, the right is itself a limit on the government. The test is always where the government's limits have exceptions. Not the other way around.

[GatorNorth]

What is permissible as "speech"? What makes something the "press"? What qualifies as a religion? All the same question, all the same answer.

Lets not kid each other. The IRS determines what's a religion and what's a cult.

Press and speech are regulated reasonably with social mores impacting them. Guns should be too, and are far more black and white.

[gator996]

Thank you Michigan...

So what should the exceptions to the 2nd ammendment be?

[gator996]

Lets not kid each other. The IRS determines what's a religion and what's a cult.

Press and speech are regulated reasonably with social mores impacting them. Guns should be too, and are far more black and white.

Thank You

Sometimes the arguments presented here become so ridiculous...

[wargunfan]

OK, let's talk real agendas...


Please someone from the gun advocate side please answer this...


Since the 2nd ammendment provides for the right to bear arms....

What is permissable as "arms"?
Is any type of armanent permissable in your opinion?

This has been gone over ad infinitum, ad nauseum on THFSG. But I'll just throw this out a starter: anything but crew served weapons. And yes, that would include fully automatic weapons. I can own any machine gun I choose. Look that up bubby. I choose not to for several reasons. But anything an individual can use should be legal. I do not include explosives in this as most individuals cannot safely store or use them. Look, the Second Amendment is a tripwire against tyranny. Once tripped all manner of weaponry will come into use. You just seem to have more faith in the inherent goodness of big government. I disagree. We're different. I understand that. I will never try to force a gun into your hands. You just respect my right to keep and bear arms and stand with me to stop the creeping disarmament of THE PEOPLE.

[MichiGator2002]

Thank you Michigan...

So what should the exceptions to the 2nd ammendment be?

There was an entire thread about that just recently (http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas/showthread.php?t=254152), but no consensus. The upshot is that we know two pretty important things from the Supreme Court's two recent rulings -- first, that the incorporation doctrine does mean that the 2nd Amendment binds the states, and second, that some sort of heightened scrutiny does apply to infringements on private gun ownership. The Court declined to say what level of scrutiny applies, though, so it'll be something that gets litigated. I wouldn't be surprised if there are lawsuits brought against New York's recent legislation, particularly the magazine limits, and other states with famously inconvenient/restrictive laws like MA or CA.

[Minister_of_Information]

AR15s are scary looking to some people and laws that restrict these weapons are reassuring to them. It's really nothing more than pandering.

[wargunfan]

AR15s are scary looking to some people and laws that restrict these weapons are reassuring to them. It's really nothing more than pandering.

This^^^^ If folks could just understand that an AR15 or any other rifle with a pistol grip or telescoping stock or accessory rail is no more dangerous than a hunting rifle. They should be outraged that politicians are pandering to their misplaced fears.

[ArtVandelay]

So a criminal uses an AR - 15 to commit a crime?

I think the moral of this story is... keep the weapons out of the hands of criminals and not law-abiding citizens.

He wasn't a criminal until he took the gun and committed a crime...

[gator996]

This^^^^ If folks could just understand that an AR15 or any other rifle with a pistol grip or telescoping stock or accessory rail is no more dangerous than a hunting rifle. They should be outraged that politicians are pandering to their misplaced fears.

So why are those modifications done?

[CalSFGator]

Right there you lose your credibility. No government "allows" a citizen to have a firearm. I know what you're trying to say but it's really about passing ineffective laws which do nothing to protect children. So we wonder about the real agenda.
We'll stop calling out the liberals when they stop trying to tamper with the right to keep and bear arms. And by the way, the very idea that a government "allows" a citizen to have a firearm is a liberal lie that we totally reject.

Of course they "allow" them, at the behest of the people broadly. You do understand that the constitution could be amended to take away your poorly read 2nd Amendment, right?

[tec68]

500 people killed in auto accidents this weekend. Dead is dead.

Ohhh nooooo!!!!!! We need to ban all automobiles!!!!! It's the only way to keep us safe.

[cocodrilo]

Guns don't kill people, people do. That's why we need to get rid of people. Oh, wait, that's what we're doing.

[ATLitigator]

500 people killed in auto accidents this weekend. Dead is dead.

wow and Ill bet most of those were caused by people who didnt undergo a full background check before getting that license....

and some of the perpetrators were probably under 18 and fully licensed by the state...

lets ban all vehicle capable of going fast and killing someone!

[CalSFGator]

Nuclear weapons don't kill people, people with nuclear weapons do.

[mdgator05]

wow and Ill bet most of those were caused by people who didnt undergo a full background check before getting that license....

and some of the perpetrators were probably under 18 and fully licensed by the state...

lets ban all vehicle capable of going fast and killing someone!

The people driving legally did undergo a state sponsored test of proficiency and registered their vehicle with the state, including in most states, some measure of environmental impact and the ability to operate that vehicle safely. They did have to prove that their license had not been suspended or revoked due to driving issues.

Those not driving legally were likely charged with whatever crime they committed in that act.

[Minister_of_Information]

Nuclear weapons don't kill people, people with nuclear weapons do.

Cute if hysterical straw man. Did you know you're a member of the militia under federal law?

[CalSFGator]

Cute if hysterical straw man. Did you know you're a member of the militia under federal law?

I did, which is why I need my nukes. I have seen red dawn thousands of times, and I am ready, but am tired of being hamstrung by the gov't.

Plus, my argument is as valid as the reactions above to "take the cars away".

All these laws fundamentally are cost-benefit determinations for the people. I would love to drive 120MPH on the freeway, but that will cost extra lives, so I just do it illegally. I don't really think we need AR-15s (the primary purpose of which is for men to feel more manly in a world as their lovemaking abilities decline), so I would be fine with getting rid of them if we thought it made us collectively more safe.

[Minister_of_Information]

I did, which is why I need my nukes. I have seen red dawn thousands of times, and I am ready, but am tired of being hamstrung by the gov't.

Plus, my argument is as valid as the reactions above to "take the cars away".

All these laws fundamentally are cost-benefit determinations for the people. I would love to drive 120MPH on the freeway, but that will cost extra lives, so I just do it illegally. I don't really think we need AR-15s (the primary purpose of which is for men to feel more manly in a world as their lovemaking abilities decline), so I would be fine with getting rid of them if we thought it made us collectively more safe.

Do I need to quote Franklin?

And BTW:

WOLVERINES!

[tec68]

This^^^^ If folks could just understand that an AR15 or any other rifle with a pistol grip or telescoping stock or accessory rail is no more dangerous than a hunting rifle. They should be outraged that politicians are pandering to their misplaced fears.

But people do not understand this.

Some need to take the time and learn a little about the things they are trying so hard to argue against.

The AR15 is not an Assault Rifle.

Assault Rifle is a term that among other characteristics must support burst or fully-automatic fire.. The AR15 is a generic term for a sporting rifle designed to look and function like an M16 or M4 except that it is semiautomatic only.

The AR15 shoots the .223 Remington which is a sporting round. The .223 round is actually LESS powerful of a round than most deer hunters use.

[gator996]

But people do not understand this.

Some need to take the time and learn a little about the things they are trying so hard to argue against.

The AR15 is not an Assault Rifle.

Assault Rifle is a term that among other characteristics must support burst or fully-automatic fire.. The AR15 is a generic term for a sporting rifle designed to look and function like an M16 or M4 except that it is semiautomatic only.

The AR15 shoots the .223 Remington which is a sporting round. The .223 round is actually LESS powerful of a round than most deer hunters use.


So why do they do the "mods"?

[CalSFGator]

Do I need to quote Franklin?

And BTW:

WOLVERINES!

Please do, I assume about freedom over security? I generally agree, which is why I believe in very little actually being illegal in this country, certainly not drugs, or prostitution, or "smut" (whatever that is), or immigration, or any of the things that aren't actually designed to hurt others. Now, a semi automatic weapon capable of riddling humans with hundreds of bullets in seconds - eh.

[Minister_of_Information]

Please do, I assume about freedom over security? I generally agree, which is why I believe in very little actually being illegal in this country, certainly not drugs, or prostitution, or "smut" (whatever that is), or immigration, or any of the things that aren't actually designed to hurt others. Now, a semi automatic weapon capable of riddling humans with hundreds of bullets in seconds - eh.

When you say seconds, you mean minutes or hours right? The sustainable rate of fire for an AR15 is 12-18 rounds per minute. More than that and you will destroy the weapon within 200 rounds or so.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

How do you keep guns out of the hands of people who are yet to have committed a crime?



Why would we try?

[Lawdog88]

So why do they do the "mods"?


To make them more lethal, of course. :whoa: :laugh:

[gator996]

To make them more lethal, of course. :whoa: :laugh:



But the claim was the "mods" didn't make them more dangerous....

I'm confused. :huh:



Gun advocate logic is like Chinese arithmetic....causes headaches.

[helix139]

So why are those modifications done?

Ergonomics mainly. A telescoping stock allows for a light weight stock that can easily be adjusted to fit more than 1 person or shooting situation (you may want a longer stock when shooting prone or a shorter stock when shooting from a standing position) and promotes a good consistent cheek weld for looking through sights and/or optics with maximum control of the gun.

Vertical forward grips are actually not all that effective if you grip it like a handle to try to prevent recoil. The barrel will still climb and it will do so on a horizontal axis toward the shooter's off hand and not just vertical. Actually, the best way to control the gun is to use the vertical foregrip simply as a point to consistently index your hand on the forward rail or hand guard. You then align the thumb of the off hand with the bore to allow you to have the best control of the muzzle of the gun.

You'll notice that both of these "modifications" (the foregrip is more of an accessory than a modification as it is easily removeable) are more about being able to control the weapon and put rounds where they are aimed. They have very little (if anything) to do with being able to dish out multiple rounds in a hurry.

To continue, forward rails are simply there to attach accessories, such as the aforementioned grips, or useful things like flashlights so that the operator of the weapon is free to keep their hands in a shooting position while operating a light to identify their target in a dark environment. Positive target identification is also a good thing, wouldn't you agree? And FWIW, a person using a flashlight who doesn't know how to use it will do a great job of giving their position away. They are defensive tools, not offensive. Lasers can also be attached, but again, they are defensive tools. Like a flashlight, a laser in the hands of someone who does not know what they are doing will give them away. They are intended for precision in close range encounters, but a rail is also not necessary to mount a laser. They can be attached directly to a rail or another part of the gun.

Pistol grips aren't really a mod, but a standard feature on a variety of long guns nowadays. It's an ergonomic thing promoting control of the weapon. It's not going to assist in firing off a high number of rounds.

So again, is precisely controlling a weapon and being able to positively identify a target before engaging a good thing or something we don't want in a gun?

[CalSFGator]

When you say seconds, you mean minutes or hours right? The sustainable rate of fire for an AR15 is 12-18 rounds per minute. More than that and you will destroy the weapon within 200 rounds or so.

Maybe for you. I haven't fired one in years, but with a beta mag, I could easily get a hundred or more shots off in a couple minutes.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

I dunno...you have any numbers besides guessing?

There are some studies that suggest somewhere around 2,000,000 times a gun is used in self defense

There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens. That was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck's survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually. However these surveys each had their flaws which prompted Dr. Kleck to conduct his own study specifically tailored to estimate the number of DGU's annually.

Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text, PDF). Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

[mdgator05]

Why would we try?

Well he said that the guy was a criminal because he committed a crime and, therefore, we should keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

I was pointing out that the issue is that he wasn't a criminal until he stole a gun, shot his mother, and then shot and killed a bunch of Kindergartners.

So maybe just keeping guns out of the hands of people after they commit a crime isn't enough if the goal is to prevent these events from occurring.

[tec68]

So why do they do the "mods"?

Why does who do what "mods"?

Edit: This is meant to get you to research. The Internet is available.

[helix139]

Maybe for you. I haven't fired one in years, but with a beta mag, I could easily get a hundred or more shots off in a couple minutes.

There is a high likelihood you'd have some major feed problems and your barrel would be red hot.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

So maybe just keeping guns out of the hands of people after they commit a crime isn't enough if the goal is to prevent these events from occurring.

Does any kind of law enforcement have that as a goal? And should it be a goal for the constitutionally protected gun ownership?

I mean, do we spend a lot of time trying to prevent the constitutionally protected freedom of speech crimes, like hate crimes, treason, plagiarism and the such?

[mdgator05]

Does any kind of law enforcement have that as a goal? And should it be a goal for the constitutionally protected gun ownership?

I mean, do we spend a lot of time trying to prevent the constitutionally protected freedom of speech crimes, like hate crimes, treason, plagiarism and the such?

To the first question, yes. Drunk driving in and of itself is not a bad thing. Drunk driving is bad because it causes people to kill other people. So we write a law to prevent it in order to prevent people from committing another crime (Vehicular Manslaughter).

To your second question, yes, we should be designing our system of constitutionally protected well-regulated militias by trying to lower the negative consequences of such a freedom, such as mass shootings.

[wygator]

If those were the primary purposes then live ammunition wouldn't really be necessary at all would it?

Certainly not for target practice...

And how about we let hunting guns only shoot tranquilizers....


Stop being ridiculous here...Guns are made to kill things. :dead:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd estimate conservatively that more than 99% of American gun owners never kill a human.

What kind of ammunition would you use for target practice besides live? Most people do buy less expensive target rounds for that activity.

[wargunfan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd estimate conservatively that more than 99% of American gun owners never kill a human.

What kind of ammunition would you use for target practice besides live? Most people do buy less expensive target rounds for that activity.

there were 32,000 gun related deaths in 2011 per the CDC. There are approximately 55 million households in the US in which there is at least one legal gun owner. So the percentage of households which didn't kill anyone is more like 99.99%. Of course gun deaths are deplorable but are overwhelmingly the result of crimes with illegal guns. We are passing sweeping gun legislation in some states over what? They clearly will not prevent the next crazoid from committing mayhem. I smell another agenda.

[tec68]

there were 32,000 gun related deaths in 2011 per the CDC. There are approximately 55 million households in the US in which there is at least one legal gun owner. So the percentage of households which didn't kill anyone is more like 99.99%. Of course gun deaths are deplorable but are overwhelmingly the result of crimes with illegal guns. We are passing sweeping gun legislation in some states over what? They clearly will not prevent the next crazoid from committing mayhem. I smell another agenda.

If those numbers are correct I believe it would be closer to 99.999%:grin:

And that is only if ALL of those deaths were killed by LEGAL gun owners. Which is definitely not the case.

I would bet 70%+ of the 32,000 killed by guns were killed by people who own those guns ILLEGALLY.

[RealGatorFan]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/19/accidental-shooting-gun-show/1847879/

5 hurt in accidental shootings at 3 U.S. gun shows

MEDINA, Ohio (AP) — Accidental shootings at gun shows in North Carolina, Indiana and Ohio left five people injured Saturday, the same day that thousands of gun advocates gathered peacefully at state capitals around the U.S. to rally against stricter firearm limits.

At the Dixie Gun and Knife Show in Raleigh, a 12-gauge shotgun discharged as its owner unzipped its case for a law enforcement officer to check at a security entrance, injuring three people, state Agriculture Department spokesman Brian Long said

In Indianapolis, police said a 54-year-old man was injured when he inadvertently shot himself while leaving a gun show.

Emory L. Cozee was loading his .45-caliber semi-automatic when he shot himself in the hand as he was leaving the Indy 1500 Gun and Knife show at the state fairgrounds, state police said. Loaded personal weapons aren't allowed inside the show.

And in Ohio, a gun dealer in Medina was checking out a semi-automatic handgun he had bought Saturday when he accidentally pulled the trigger, injuring his friend, police said. The gun's magazine had been removed from the firearm, but one round remained in the chamber, police said.

Then these shows did the wrong thing because no way that would happen here in Birmingham. First, to even get into the convention, your gun must be unloaded with no magazines in the rifle/handgun. All magazines must be empty. Inside the convention floor, all rifles, shotguns, and handguns are zipped so you can't fire the weapon. Unzipping any firearm will immediately result in arrest and you have 500 people that will jump your butt if they see you do it.

These Darwin-award nominees should know better then to load any weapon near a convention center.

[RealGatorFan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd estimate conservatively that more than 99% of American gun owners never kill a human.

What kind of ammunition would you use for target practice besides live? Most people do buy less expensive target rounds for that activity.

Here's another fact - 95% of police officers have never discharged their firearm outside of a gun range. The vast majority are those that police urban/inner cities. The further out you go the less likely you will ever use your gun. Got these facts from a den leader who is on Hoover's CSI unit.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

To your second question, yes, we should be designing our system of constitutionally protected well-regulated militias by trying to lower the negative consequences of such a freedom, such as mass shootings.

So, other than the current laws, what else could be done to prevent mass shootings? Be specific please and show how a particular new law would almost certainly prevent mass shooting

[Lawdog88]

So, other than the current laws, what else could be done to prevent mass shootings? Be specific please and show how a particular new law would almost certainly prevent mass shooting


Outlawing folding & telescoping stocks, flash suppressors, bayonet mounts, and pistol grips on firearms that look like ones the military uses.

Bingo. You know, like they did the last time.

:ninja:

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Outlawing folding & telescoping stocks, flash suppressors, bayonet mounts, and pistol grips on firearms that look like ones the military uses.

Bingo. You know, like they did the last time.

:ninja:

And all that prevented mass shooting? How?

A criminal intent on killing a bunch of people says; "Damn, I can't get a folding and telescoping stick, a flash suppressor or a bayonet mount, so I guess my nefarious plans for going to a theater and shooting a bunch of people will just have to wait!"

BTW, the teenager that killed his mother, his brother and his sister killed them all with a .22 rifle. He killed his father with a AR15.

[gatorman_07732]

Well he said that the guy was a criminal because he committed a crime and, therefore, we should keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

I was pointing out that the issue is that he wasn't a criminal until he stole a gun, shot his mother, and then shot and killed a bunch of Kindergartners.

So maybe just keeping guns out of the hands of people after they commit a crime isn't enough if the goal is to prevent these events from occurring.

Perhaps you can come up with a law for stupid mothers. Can you legislate stupid?

[mdgator05]

So, other than the current laws, what else could be done to prevent mass shootings? Be specific please and show how a particular new law would almost certainly prevent mass shooting

Mental health screenings for gun licenses. Annual renewals for every gun license, ensuring that the licensee has not developed a mental disorder. Gun licenses that are person-specific, with significant penalties for the usage by somebody not authorized to use the gun (even at a shooting range). Safe requirements for every gun to ensure that fewer guns are stolen (again with penalties attached). Hard crackdown on black and grey market gun purchases. Allowing the study of gun violence by Biostatisticians working for the government in order to better design programs preventing gun violence with lower amounts of influence from interest groups. Limited magazine size to ensure that the shooter has to switch magazines or guns, slowing the shooting down (even if only a little bit).

Any of these programs would theoretically lower the amount of gun violence. And with less interest group pressure on scientists, the functioning of each of these laws could be assessed using empirical data. If you need empirical evidence before implementing the program nationwide, you could run some sort of a randomized controlled trial.

[helix139]

And all that prevented mass shooting? How?

A criminal intent on killing a bunch of people says; "Damn, I can't get a folding and telescoping stick, a flash suppressor or a bayonet mount, so I guess my nefarious plans for going to a theater and shooting a bunch of people will just have to wait!"

BTW, the teenager that killed his mother, his brother and his sister killed them all with a .22 rifle. He killed his father with a AR15.

I think you missed Lawdog's sarcasm

[mdgator05]

Perhaps you can come up with a law for stupid mothers. Can you legislate stupid?

You can outlaw stupid behavior. So the mother allowed this guy to train with her guns. A person-specific license could legislate this stupid behavior into an illegal act, with appropriate punishments. It is highly doubtful that Lanza could have passed even the most basic mental health screening. You can also legislate very restrictive storage requirements, ensuring fewer guns are stolen by legislating against the stupid behavior of having guns just laying around people's houses.

[Ceal8ter]

Accidental? Who cares...

Dead is dead.

So then why should anyone think "responsible" gun owners are all we need.
These folks are dangerous to themselves...and me.

I don't believe any of those accidental victims died...

[Ceal8ter]

You know what my intention was? :laugh:

I already knew they were accidental shootings....

What damn difference does that make?

What it shows is that "supposed" responsible good gun owners are a threat to themselves and others...

There are traffic "accidents" every few mins in this country, maybe we should ban automobile use?

[wygator]

AR-15 is commonly chambered in .22. The more popular models, though, are in .223.

Watch this video with a world champion shooter to see the different rounds fired and to compare an assault rifle to other common handgun, rifle and shotgun rounds. It will answer a lot of questions for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k97ZpQ6UmZY

[rpmGator]

There was a 76 car pile up in Ohio yesterday. A young girl was killed.

More kids die from car's than guns. Both guns and cars are man made tools that are dependent on the user.

Most would not say the bad and good drivers are exactly alike. But the anti gunner thinks all gun owners are the same.

There are many more gun owners than NRA members also. The NRA is the part of the iceberg you see, the gun owners are a lot bigger in number and won't be moved by one fool with a pen.

[Lawdog88]

And all that prevented mass shooting? How?


You know, like it did before ! :ninja:

An Updated Assessment of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban: Impacts on Gun Markets and Gun Violence, 1994-2003

Report to the National Institute of Justice,
United States Department of Justice
By
Christopher S. Koper
(Principal Investigator)
With
Daniel J. Woods and Jeffrey A. Roth
June 2004

9.4. Summary

Although the ban has been successful in reducing crimes with AWs ["assault weapons": this includes "assault pistols" and "assault rifles"; the DOJ study clearly notes that "assault pistols" are more commonly used in crimes than "assault rifles"], any benefits from this reduction are likely to have been outweighed by steady or rising use of non-banned semiautomatics with LCMs, which are used in crime much more frequently than AWs. Therefore, we cannot clearly credit the ban with any of the nation’s recent drop in gun violence. And, indeed, there has been no discernible reduction in the lethality and injuriousness of gun violence, based on indicators like the percentage of gun crimes resulting in death or the share of gunfire incidents resulting in injury, as we might have expected had the ban reduced crimes with both AWs and LCMs. www.sas.upenn.edu/jerrylee/research/aw_final2004.pdf (http://www.sas.upenn.edu/jerrylee/research/aw_final2004.pdf)

[gatorman_07732]

You can outlaw stupid behavior. So the mother allowed this guy to train with her guns. A person-specific license could legislate this stupid behavior into an illegal act, with appropriate punishments. It is highly doubtful that Lanza could have passed even the most basic mental health screening. You can also legislate very restrictive storage requirements, ensuring fewer guns are stolen by legislating against the stupid behavior of having guns just laying around people's houses.

I'm not sure how you can legislate storage requirements in your house. There are however laws such as child endangerment on the books. The mother was 100% to blame in that case as I said many times. There is just no way around it and I happen to agree with you that she should have never taken him shooting, nor should she have had guns in the house. You can't really legislate that, but this is where commonsense comes into play.

[DaveFla]

Thank you Michigan...

So what should the exceptions to the 2nd ammendment be?

It's spelled 'Amendment' dammit...

Geez, you're a typing cliche of liberalism in Ammerica. (Pun IN-tended)

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

You know, like it did before ! :ninja:

Actually, yes (edited)

Assault Weapons and Mass Shootings

In "Appendix A" Roth et. al found, "contrary to our expectations, only 2 -- 3.8 percent - of the 52 mass murders we gleaned from the Nexis search [from Jan. 1992 through May 1996] unambiguously involved assault weapons. This is about the same percentage as for other murders... media accounts lend some tenuous support to the notion that assault weapons are more deadly than other weapons in mass murder events, as measured by victims per incident. However in Footnote 61 Roth states: "If, for instance, the substituted long guns were .22 caliber, rimfire (i.e., low velocity) rifles (and in addition did not accept large-capacity magazines), then a substitution effect [as a result of the assault weapons ban] would be less likely to have demonstrably negative consequences. If, on the other hand, offenders substituted shotguns for assault weapons, there could be negative consequences for gun violence mortality. "

Gary Kleck in Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control (Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997) after examining the FBI's Supplementary Homicide Reports for the years 1976 to 1992, reports "the rate of killings with four or more victims was higher in 1976-1982, prior to the popularity of assault weapons, than in 1983-1992. Regardless of the numerical cutoff defining mass shootings, there was no increase in such incidents associated with the increased popularity of assault weapons after 1984".

Dr. Kleck also states that "Oddly enough, mass killings are actually less likely to involve the use of guns of any kind than homicides involving small numbers of victims. For all murders and non negligent manslaughters covered in Supplementary Homicide Reports (about 90% of all U.S. killings) for the period 1976 to 1992, only 48.3% of victims killed in incidents with four or more victims were killed with guns, compared to 62.3% of those killed in incidents with three or fewer victims. This is mainly due to the large share of mass killings committed with arson, which is rarely involved in ordinary homicides."

Incidentally, there are an estimated 4 million assault rifles in the U.S., which amounts to roughly 1.7% of the total gun stock. (Institute for Research on Small Arms in International Security, Assault Rifle Fact Sheet #2, 1989)

Gun Cite (http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcassaul.html)

[Lawdog88]

I think our trains passed in the night.

[gator996]

I don't believe any of those accidental victims died...

This was answered a few pages ago...

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

I think our trains passed in the night.

:grin:

My bad. I initially misread the article.

[wargunfan]

The travesty of gun control in Australia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=fGaDAThOHhA