Didn't the left make a big deal about this "lie"?

[DaveFla]

In fact, didn't it make one of river's "greatest lies of the 2012 presidential campaign"?



AUBURN HILLS, Mich. — Fiat and Chrysler Group have reached an agreement to expand passenger car manufacturing and sales in China, officials said Tuesday.

Under the agreement, Guangzhou Automobile Group Co. Ltd. will build one Jeep model in China for Chrysler for sale in China. A specific model was not announced.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/01/15/jeep-guangzhou-china/1566380/

[MichiGator2002]

Sure did. I remember Jeeps being made in China being deemed one of the most blatant and scurrilous false claims made by Romney supporters.

"Sorry, was a bit honest? Terribly sorry" -- Drunk Giles, Buffy the Vampire Slayer

[g8orbill]

why would anyone be surprised

[DaveFla]

I knew it would only be a matter of time before this was proven true.

Where there's smoke...

[bluelang]

Maybe you should go back and read the thread. No one denied they were expanding - the original context is that they were eliminating USA jobs and replacing them with China jobs.

[rivergator]

Maybe you should go back and read the thread. No one denied they were expanding - the original context is that they were eliminating USA jobs and replacing them with China jobs.

Exactly. Romney said they were moving jobs from Ohio to China. That was false. And it's still false.

[DaveFla]

Maybe you should go back and read the thread. No one denied they were expanding - the original context is that they were eliminating USA jobs and replacing them with China jobs.

Link?

[ncbullgator]

Same context as when the liberal unions were claiming Boeing was eliminating jobs when locating a plant in SC was decided.

[rivergator]

Link?


dave, you're the one who began the thread and you're asking for a link about what was said?

[DaveFla]

The actual OP:


Romney and Jeep
Anyone catch Romney earlier today saying that Jeep was planning on moving its way over to China? Well, hours later, Chrysler announced that it planned on doing no such thing, and if Romney had simply read what Jeep had said, he would have known that they were actually planning to "return Jeep output to China".

I have few problems with Romney, but my biggest and most worrisome issue is that he lies... And he lies a lot.

http://www.freep.com/article/2012102...to-China-gaffe


Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas/showthread.php?t=245368&highlight=Jeep#ixzz2IC3eQ9B3



Care to try that again?

[DaveFla]

dave, you're the one who began the thread and you're asking for a link about what was said?

YOU claimed the other thread was implying something it wasn't (as shown above)

You made the claim. I was asking you to prove it was true. Of course, the need is no longer there. I did it for you.

[rivergator]

YOU claimed the other thread was implying something it wasn't (as shown above)

You made the claim. I was asking you to prove it was true. Of course, the need is no longer there. I did it for you.


Mitt Romney falsely claimed in a recent speech that “Jeep, now owned by the Italians, is thinking of moving all production to China.” Chrysler says it is considering adding Jeep production sites in China to address rising demand in that market. But the company says it is “a leap that would be difficult even for professional circus acrobats” to suggest that it would close U.S. facilities and move all operations to China.

link (http://factcheck.org/2012/10/romney-distorts-facts-on-jeep-auto-bailout/)

[Emmitto]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2012/10/30/mitt-romney-jeep-china-jobs_n_2045988.html

Jeep announced they were reentering the Chinese market, which they suspended in 2009. That included building Jeeps in China.

Romney told a crowd in Ohio that Jeep (Fiat) was considering moving all production to China.

Jeep responded by reiterating that the resumed production in China wasn't displacing jobs in the US and that they in fact intend to add jobs here too.

Jeep appears to be resuming production in China, as announced. I don't know the status of the increased production/employment here.

A lawyer might get Romney off be cause of his "thinking about" qualifier. Of course there's no support for that claim either, and Jeep's announcement that he was referring to was quite clear. But his intent appears to be to make people believe Jeep would be shutting down all factories here and replacing that output with Chinese plants. That's probably a bad thing.

Verdict: innocent of lying by technicality, morally guilty of misleading people into fearing for their jobs.

[Emmitto]

Original Bloomberg story:

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-21/fiat-says-china-may-build-all-jeep-models-as-suv-demand-climbs.html

"Fiat SpA (F), majority owner of Chrysler Group LLC, plans to return Jeep output to China and may eventually make all of its models in that country, according to the head of both automakers’ operations in the region.

Chrysler currently builds all Jeep SUV models atplants in Michigan, Illinois and Ohio. Manley referred to adding Jeep production sites rather than shifting output from North America to China."

Report from The Hill on Romney's speech in Defiance, Ohio:

http://m.toledoblade.com/Politics/2012/10/26/Romney-worries-about-Jeep-going-to-China.html

“I saw a story today that one of the great manufacturers in this state, Jeep, now owned by the Italians, is thinking of moving all production to China,” Romney said in his Defiance speech. “I will fight for every good job in America, I’m going to fight to make sure trade is fair, and if it’s fair, America will win.”

[bluelang]

Dave's always good for a larf.

[rivergator]

Let me get this straight:
Dave is concerned that we called it a lie when Romney claimed that Chrysler was moving all its Jeep production to China. When as it turned out, Chrysler is not moving all its Jeep production to China.
Good job there, Dave.

[g8orbill]

actaully what Romney said was:


“I saw a story today that one of the great manufacturers in this state, Jeep, now owned by the Italians, is thinking of moving all production to China,” Romney said in his Defiance speech. “I will fight for every good job in America, I’m going to fight to make sure trade is fair, and if it’s fair, America will win.”


not sure how anyone can say he "lied", when all he did was reference something he read.

[mdgator05]

actaully what Romney said was:


“I saw a story today that one of the great manufacturers in this state, Jeep, now owned by the Italians, is thinking of moving all production to China,” Romney said in his Defiance speech. “I will fight for every good job in America, I’m going to fight to make sure trade is fair, and if it’s fair, America will win.”


not sure how anyone can say he "lied", when all he did was reference something he read.

The right wing echo chamber in full force. "Someone said" or "I read somewhere" followed by something grossly untrue. Then you can always say, well somebody did say it. And people wonder where the multitude of false chain emails start.

[g8orbill]

md- if you read something and repeat it-and it turns out to be wrong it is a mistake but not a lie unless it was intentionally said to mislead-now you can come up with that conclusion in your own mind taht it was a lie but you cannot prove that conclusion

you, I and everybody else on this board probably read stuff everyday that we repeat- does that make us all liars

your 47%ers prez said he would never raise taxes on the middle class and then he did-was that a lie?

[llm85]

Dave's always good for a larf.

I fail to see the humor in moving jobs to China.

[fredsanford]

md- if you read something and repeat it-and it turns out to be wrong it is a mistake but not a lie unless it was intentionally said to mislead-now you can come up with that conclusion in your own mind taht it was a lie but you cannot prove that conclusion

you, I and everybody else on this board probably read stuff everyday that we repeat- does that make us all liars

your 47%ers prez said he would never raise taxes on the middle class and then he did-was that a lie?

The right wing has turned this into an art.

First, a wacky website comes out with a nutty theory. Then Fox and the NY Post report on it. Limbaugh talks about it. Then, a pub pol says, "I read/heard that..."

All lies.

[g8orbill]

can you actually prove it was a lie shab?

what about your 47%ers prez and all his lies- I guess when a dem does it they aren't lies-only when a pub does it-interesting theory

[surfn1080]

can you actually prove it was a lie shab?

what about your 47%ers prez and all his lies- I guess when a dem does it they aren't lies-only when a pub does it-interesting theory

They can't answer the tax increase question. And that's not the only lie of Obama. Everyone needs to stop acting as if all politicians don't lie!

[fredsanford]

can you actually prove it was a lie shab?

what about your 47%ers prez and all his lies- I guess when a dem does it they aren't lies-only when a pub does it-interesting theory

He hasn't told one lie that I am aware of.

[g8orbill]

of course not

[rivergator]

It was Politifact that named it the biggest lie of the year. It may well have cost him Ohio, since pretty much everyone knew it wasn't true.

It was a lie told in the critical state of Ohio in the final days of a close campaign -- that Jeep was moving its U.S. production to China. It originated with a conservative blogger, who twisted an accurate news story into a falsehood. Then it picked up steam when the Drudge Report ran with it. Even though Jeep's parent company gave a quick and clear denial, Mitt Romney repeated it and his campaign turned it into a TV ad.

And they stood by the claim, even as the media and the public expressed collective outrage against something so obviously false.


link (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/dec/12/lie-year-2012-Romney-Jeeps-China/)

[Gatorrick22]

Exactly. Romney said they were moving jobs from Ohio to China. That was false. And it's still false.

Right, first they add jobs in China then the close plants in Detroit. See how it works?

[rivergator]

Right, first they add jobs in China then the close plants in Detroit. See how it works?

There you go. If say something false now, it's not really false, because it might happen in the future?

[Gatoragman]

Original Bloomberg story:

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/201...nd-climbs.html

"Fiat SpA (F), majority owner of Chrysler Group LLC, plans to return Jeep output to China and may eventually make all of its models in that country, according to the head of both automakers’ operations in the region.

Chrysler currently builds all Jeep SUV models atplants in Michigan, Illinois and Ohio. Manley referred to adding Jeep production sites rather than shifting output from North America to China."

Report from The Hill on Romney's speech in Defiance, Ohio:



Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas/showthread.php?t=254526#ixzz2IFEqLmxt

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobile...n_2045988.html

Jeep announced they were reentering the Chinese market, which they suspended in 2009. That included building Jeeps in China.

Romney told a crowd in Ohio that Jeep (Fiat) was considering moving all production to China. Jeep responded by reiterating that the resumed production in China wasn't displacing jobs in the US and that they in fact intend to add jobs here too.

Jeep appears to be resuming production in China, as announced. I don't know the status of the increased production/employment here.

A lawyer might get Romney off be cause of his "thinking about" qualifier. Of course there's no support for that claim either, and Jeep's announcement that he was referring to was quite clear. But his intent appears to be to make people believe Jeep would be shutting down all factories here and replacing that output with Chinese plants. That's probably a bad thing.

Verdict: innocent of lying by technicality, morally guilty of misleading people into fearing for their jobs

Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas/showthread.php?t=254526#ixzz2IFFCqivl

Ok, iused your links and your statements, explain to me how this was percieved as a lie?

[mdgator05]

I fail to see the humor in moving jobs to China.

The humor is because that isn't what is happening, and yet Dave claimed it was. They are adding jobs in China at the same time as they are adding jobs in the US.

[mdgator05]

md- if you read something and repeat it-and it turns out to be wrong it is a mistake but not a lie unless it was intentionally said to mislead-now you can come up with that conclusion in your own mind taht it was a lie but you cannot prove that conclusion

you, I and everybody else on this board probably read stuff everyday that we repeat- does that make us all liars

your 47%ers prez said he would never raise taxes on the middle class and then he did-was that a lie?

But the issue is that the right wing has a system in which false things are actively spread through media sources with the intent of misleading. As pointed out, some crazy website says an outlandish comment. It is then picked up by somebody on talk radio or who writes at a place like Weekly Standard or National Review. Then you have politicians saying it. And the only evidence they are able to provide is "I read somewhere..." This system results in many on the right buying into things that are completely untrue, even demonstrably false, as was the case here.

Since you seem desperate to turn this thread into a discussion of Obama, are you discussing the recent increase in the payroll tax? You do realize that Obama temporarily lowered the payroll tax and is now simply returning it to the level it was at when he was first inaugurated, right? I don't consider a temporary tax cut ending as a tax increase, since the cut itself was temporary.

[rivergator]

Ok, iused your links and your statements, explain to me how this was percieved as a lie?

I'm honestly not sure your question.

[brainstorm]

I'm honestly not sure your question.

Compare the bolded statement in the Bloomberg article to the bolded Romney quote in the Huffington post article. They seem to be in agreement. Thus, I have to wonder why Romney is being called a liar.

[wgbgator]

Compare the bolded statement in the Bloomberg article to the bolded Romney quote in the Huffington post article. They seem to be in agreement. Thus, I have to wonder why Romney is being called a liar.

It only "agrees" if you conflate adding/expanding production sites with shifting all production to another country.

[rivergator]

Compare the bolded statement in the Bloomberg article to the bolded Romney quote in the Huffington post article. They seem to be in agreement. Thus, I have to wonder why Romney is being called a liar.

Oh, OK. Sorry, thought it was obvious.
Making some of each of the Chrysler models in China to sell in China is far different than closing every Chrysler plant and moving all production to China.
They make Bud and Bud Light at the A-B brewery in Jacksonville. But they don't make all the world's Bud there.

[Emmitto]

Ok, iused your links and your statements, explain to me how this was percieved as a lie?

I said it was technically not a lie.

But IMO, the deception comes from what happened throughout the process.

The part you bolded is what the Romney camp hung their colkective hat on at first. But what about the second paragraph, which unequivocally states the exact opposite of the message Romney delivered? I could understand some confusion, as the first paragraph is undeniably poorly worded. But there was no confusion for Romney. He picked that part and ignored the part that contradicted his narrative.

Furthermore, Chrysler corrected him immediately. So then the Romney team tweaked their wording, removing "all", and subsequently made radio and TV ads that were now technically true (Jeeps will be made in China!!) and played to the erroneous (intentional or not) message of his speech in Ohio.

The new, technically correct ads were really announcing that Jeep was adding additional production lines in China that would have no effect on American jobs. The part if the announcement about more US jobs was absent. That's good news all around! But coming right after an announcement that ALL jobs were being sent to China, it might cause people to form different conclusions.

At best, Romney cherry-picked a sentence he liked more and ran with it despite another paragraph that said the exact opposite of his interpretation. No confusion, no seeking of clarification--he formed a lead-pipe lock conclusion. But then all "confusion" was cleared up by Chrysler. Yet ads were then constructed with new language, that in reality touted a positive development, but perpetuating the original mistaken in judgment/lie.

Thus, while some spin can get the "lie" label dismissed on a technicality, the deceit is readily apparent to me.

[fredsanford]

of course not

It's curious how after the Romney campaign established a repeated pattern of deception (wouldn't be governed by fact-checkers), you would still have no problem calling his lies just misstatements.

However, when Obama issued multiple statements regarding Benghazi due to a moving target of intelligence information, those were all lies to you.

[surfn1080]

It's curious how after the Romney campaign established a repeated pattern of deception (wouldn't be governed by fact-checkers), you would still have no problem calling his lies just misstatements.

However, when Obama issued multiple statements regarding Benghazi due to a moving target of intelligence information, those were all lies to you.

I am curious how the POTUS was not properly informed on Benghazi till weeks after? Its amazing to me how Obama has a free pass of half the crap that happens.

Its ok because he is proving himself a liar every day and its hitting your pocket book now too.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Dave is exactly right;

The last two weeks should go down as a period of vindication for former GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney and earn him the nickname, “soothsayer of the Western World” — a modern-age Nostradamus.

On Jan. 14, Chrysler’s CEO acknowledged that Jeeps would be built in China, confirming a statement that unfairly earned Romney the moniker “liar of the year.”

Score one.

Then, when forces linked to al-Qaida captured the government-held town of Konna, Mali, on Jan. 10, they drove home a statement Romney made during the second presidential debate in Boca Raton, nearly three months earlier. “With the Arab Spring came a great deal of hope that there would be a change towards more moderation and opportunity for greater participation on the part of women and — and public life and in economic life in the Middle East,” he said then. “But instead we’ve seen in nation after nation a number of disturbing events.” Describing violence in Syria and Libya, he added this kicker: “Mali has been taken over, the northern part of Mali, by al-Qaida-type individuals.” This prompted, according to TheCommentator.com, a Bill Maher tweet: “Mitt, you do know that most of America thinks Mali is one of Obama’s daughters, right?” What far-left loon Maher doesn’t seem to understand is that it doesn’t matter if he knows what Mali is, so long as our president does.

Score two.

This week saw another Romney prediction come to pass — that a re-elected Obama would infringe on our Second Amendment rights. “In a second term, he would be unrestrained by the demands of re-election,” Romney said at an April 2012 National Rifle Association convention in St. Louis, according to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. “As he told the Russian president last month when he thought no one else was listening, after a re-election he’ll have a lot more, quote, ‘flexibility’ to do what he wants. I’m not exactly sure what he meant by that, but looking at his first three years, I have a very good idea.” Referring to the right to bear arms, Romney told convention-goers, “If we are going to safeguard our Second Amendment, it is time to elect a president who will defend the rights President Obama ignores or minimizes. I will.” The president’s signature on 23 executive on gun control this week, as well as his acknowledged support for a ban on certain weapons and magazines, show how right Romney was.

Score three.

Finally, Romney was ridiculed for using “binders of women” to describe what a Romney Cabinet would look like. Instead of mocking the poorly worded phrase, we should have listened to the words themselves. The president’s announcement of his second-term Cabinet prompted ABC’s George Stephanopoulos to ask on Jan. 10, “Where are the women?” Apparently, they’re all still in Romney’s binders.

Score four.

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2013/01/20/is-mitt-romney-the-new-nostradamus-15715

[fredsanford]

I am curious how the POTUS was not properly informed on Benghazi till weeks after? Its amazing to me how Obama has a free pass of half the crap that happens.

Its ok because he is proving himself a liar every day and its hitting your pocket book now too.

Because intelligence gathering isn't always perfect.

[mdgator05]

Dave is exactly right;



http://www.bizpacreview.com/2013/01/20/is-mitt-romney-the-new-nostradamus-15715

It is amazing how many on the right are trying to change the original comment by Romney so that it wouldn't be a lie.

If you bothered to read the thread, you would know that the quote was: "“I saw a story today that one of the great manufacturers in this state, Jeep, now owned by the Italians, is thinking of moving all production to China."

Nobody at the time denied that Jeep was going to build cars in China. They just stated that it was a lie to say they were moving all production to China, especially considering the fact that they were announcing expansion to their manufacturing in the US at the same time.

The attempt to change what Romney said is terribly intellectually dishonest. Maybe that should make you and Dave eligible for Too Hot lie of the year.

[gatorpa]

Because intelligence gathering isn't always perfect.

Can I quote you when the ? of WMD's and Bush comes up again?

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

It is amazing how many on the right are trying to change the original comment by Romney so that it wouldn't be a lie.

If you bothered to read the thread, you would know that the quote was: "“I saw a story today that one of the great manufacturers in this state, Jeep, now owned by the Italians, is thinking of moving all production to China."

Nobody at the time denied that Jeep was going to build cars in China. They just stated that it was a lie to say they were moving all production to China, especially considering the fact that they were announcing expansion to their manufacturing in the US at the same time.

The attempt to change what Romney said is terribly intellectually dishonest. Maybe that should make you and Dave eligible for Too Hot lie of the year.

I always thought that Gator fans were better able to READ than other folks. Apparetnly that is just not the case;

Original Bloomberg story:

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/201...nd-climbs.html

"Fiat SpA (F), majority owner of Chrysler Group LLC, plans to return Jeep output to China and may eventually make all of its models in that country, according to the head of both automakers’ operations in the region.

Chrysler currently builds all Jeep SUV models atplants in Michigan, Illinois and Ohio. Manley referred to adding Jeep production sites rather than shifting output from North America to China."

Report from The Hill on Romney's speech in Defiance, Ohio:



Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas...#ixzz2IFEqLmxt
Quote:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobile...n_2045988.html

Jeep announced they were reentering the Chinese market, which they suspended in 2009. That included building Jeeps in China.

Romney told a crowd in Ohio that Jeep (Fiat) was considering moving all production to China. Jeep responded by reiterating that the resumed production in China wasn't displacing jobs in the US and that they in fact intend to add jobs here too.

Jeep appears to be resuming production in China, as announced. I don't know the status of the increased production/employment here.

A lawyer might get Romney off be cause of his "thinking about" qualifier. Of course there's no support for that claim either, and Jeep's announcement that he was referring to was quite clear. But his intent appears to be to make people believe Jeep would be shutting down all factories here and replacing that output with Chinese plants. That's probably a bad thing.

Verdict: innocent of lying by technicality, morally guilty of misleading people into fearing for their jobs

Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas...#ixzz2IFFCqivl

Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas/showthread.php?t=254526&page=2#ixzz2Iorxi8X1

[mdgator05]

I always thought that Gator fans were better able to READ than other folks. Apparetnly that is just not the case;

Original Bloomberg story:

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/201...nd-climbs.html

"Fiat SpA (F), majority owner of Chrysler Group LLC, plans to return Jeep output to China and may eventually make all of its models in that country, according to the head of both automakers’ operations in the region.

Chrysler currently builds all Jeep SUV models atplants in Michigan, Illinois and Ohio. Manley referred to adding Jeep production sites rather than shifting output from North America to China."

Report from The Hill on Romney's speech in Defiance, Ohio:



Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas...#ixzz2IFEqLmxt
Quote:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobile...n_2045988.html

Jeep announced they were reentering the Chinese market, which they suspended in 2009. That included building Jeeps in China.

Romney told a crowd in Ohio that Jeep (Fiat) was considering moving all production to China. Jeep responded by reiterating that the resumed production in China wasn't displacing jobs in the US and that they in fact intend to add jobs here too.

Jeep appears to be resuming production in China, as announced. I don't know the status of the increased production/employment here.

A lawyer might get Romney off be cause of his "thinking about" qualifier. Of course there's no support for that claim either, and Jeep's announcement that he was referring to was quite clear. But his intent appears to be to make people believe Jeep would be shutting down all factories here and replacing that output with Chinese plants. That's probably a bad thing.

Verdict: innocent of lying by technicality, morally guilty of misleading people into fearing for their jobs

Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas...#ixzz2IFFCqivl

Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas/showthread.php?t=254526&page=2#ixzz2Iorxi8X1

And they weren't considering moving all production to China. Thus the lie. I would accuse you of not being able to read and comprehend, but I think you perfectly know how intellectually dishonest you are being. As was explained earlier, building all models doesn't mean the same thing as all production. Building all models means they will make Wranglers, Patriots, Grand Cherokees, etc. in China. That is far different than all production being in China, as they will still make those models here too.

[rivergator]

I always thought that Gator fans were better able to READ than other folks. Apparetnly that is just not the case;

Original Bloomberg story:

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/201...nd-climbs.html

"Fiat SpA (F), majority owner of Chrysler Group LLC, plans to return Jeep output to China and may eventually make all of its models in that country, according to the head of both automakers’ operations in the region.

Chrysler currently builds all Jeep SUV models atplants in Michigan, Illinois and Ohio. Manley referred to adding Jeep production sites rather than shifting output from North America to China."

Report from The Hill on Romney's speech in Defiance, Ohio:



Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas...#ixzz2IFEqLmxt
Quote:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobile...n_2045988.html

Jeep announced they were reentering the Chinese market, which they suspended in 2009. That included building Jeeps in China.

Romney told a crowd in Ohio that Jeep (Fiat) was considering moving all production to China. Jeep responded by reiterating that the resumed production in China wasn't displacing jobs in the US and that they in fact intend to add jobs here too.

Jeep appears to be resuming production in China, as announced. I don't know the status of the increased production/employment here.

A lawyer might get Romney off be cause of his "thinking about" qualifier. Of course there's no support for that claim either, and Jeep's announcement that he was referring to was quite clear. But his intent appears to be to make people believe Jeep would be shutting down all factories here and replacing that output with Chinese plants. That's probably a bad thing.

Verdict: innocent of lying by technicality, morally guilty of misleading people into fearing for their jobs

Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas...#ixzz2IFFCqivl

Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas/showthread.php?t=254526&page=2#ixzz2Iorxi8X1


We already addressed that once. Making some of each Chrysler model in China to sell in China is not the same thing as moving ALL production to China.

[gatorpa]

We already addressed that once. Making some of each Chrysler model in China to sell in China is not the same thing as moving ALL production to China.

Fiat SpA (F), majority owner of Chrysler Group LLC, plans to return Jeep output to China and may eventually make all of its models in that country, according to the head of both automakers’ operations in the region

This is what Romney quoted from the article how is it a "lie"? He quoted an article from Bloomberg not some rt wing blogger. Now if the writer of the original article was wrong the problem lay with the writer, not Romney. It was only after Romney pointed it out that the automaker stepped back from the stance as posted in the article.

[rivergator]

Fiat SpA (F), majority owner of Chrysler Group LLC, plans to return Jeep output to China and may eventually make all of its models in that country, according to the head of both automakers’ operations in the region

This is what Romney quoted from the article how is it a "lie"? He quoted an article from Bloomberg not some rt wing blogger. Now if the writer of the original article was wrong the problem lay with the writer, not Romney. It was only after Romney pointed it out that the automaker stepped back from the stance as posted in the article.

you REALLY don't understand what I just explained in the previous post?

[mdgator05]

Fiat SpA (F), majority owner of Chrysler Group LLC, plans to return Jeep output to China and may eventually make all of its models in that country, according to the head of both automakers’ operations in the region

This is what Romney quoted from the article how is it a "lie"? He quoted an article from Bloomberg not some rt wing blogger. Now if the writer of the original article was wrong the problem lay with the writer, not Romney. It was only after Romney pointed it out that the automaker stepped back from the stance as posted in the article.

All production means that if Jeep sells 500,000 Grand Cherokees, 400,000 Wranglers, 300,000 Liberties, etc. , all 500,000 Grand Cherokees, 400,000 Wranglers, 300,000 Liberties, etc. are made in China. That is what Romney claimed they were considering.

All models being made in a country means that they will make some of each of the models in China. So, for example, they could make 100,000 Grand Cherokees, 50,000 Wranglers, and 75,000 Liberties, etc. in China. So while they make all models there, all production is not in China. This is what is happening.

[gatorpa]

All production means that if Jeep sells 500,000 Grand Cherokees, 400,000 Wranglers, 300,000 Liberties, etc. , all 500,000 Grand Cherokees, 400,000 Wranglers, 300,000 Liberties, etc. are made in China. That is what Romney claimed they were considering.

All models being made in a country means that they will make some of each of the models in China. So, for example, they could make 100,000 Grand Cherokees, 50,000 Wranglers, and 75,000 Liberties, etc. in China. So while they make all models there, all production is not in China. This is what is happening.

All in the interpretation of the article, I understand how you are reading it, it is just as plausible that one could read it that ALL vehicles were to be produced there, or that all "types" vehicles would be produced there. But much easier to say "Romeny was lying", fits the hater narrative better. Same difference as the slam on Obama's famous "you did not build that". No?

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Distinctions without differences.

[mdgator05]

All in the interpretation of the article, I understand how you are reading it, it is just as plausible that one could read it that ALL vehicles were to be produced there, or that all "types" vehicles would be produced there. But much easier to say "Romeny was lying", fits the hater narrative better. Same difference as the slam on Obama's famous "you did not build that". No?

That only functions if you have a fairly weak understanding of the words being used in the statement and after withdrawing it from the context of the remarks. It isn't interpretation. It is knowing what words mean.

He was attempting to scare workers in Ohio that they would lose their jobs. He stated that Jeep was considering moving all production to China. He lied. Trying to cover for it diminishes all those involved in attempting to cover for it.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

My goodness

"Fiat SpA (F), majority owner of Chrysler Group LLC, plans to return Jeep output to China and may eventually make ALL OF ITS models in that country, according to the head of both automakers’ operations in the region.

[mdgator05]

My goodness

"Fiat SpA (F), majority owner of Chrysler Group LLC, plans to return Jeep output to China and may eventually make ALL OF ITS models in that country, according to the head of both automakers’ operations in the region.

"All of its models." Basic reading comprehension. A model is a type of car. A Grand Cherokee is a car model.

Very basic reading comprehension here: all models means that they will make the Grand Cherokee, Patriot, Wrangler, Liberty, Cherokee, etc. in China. It does not mean they will make all of the individual cars in China. In fact, they are going to make Grand Cherokees in both the US and China.

You should quit digging as you are already pretty deep in the hole here.

[rivergator]

From Politifact, again:

Bloomberg reported on Oct. 22 that the company was planning to restart production of Jeeps in China. The entirety of the Bloomberg report made it clear that Chrysler was considering expansion in China, not shuttering American production.

But one conservative news outlet seized on the report’s opening lines. The Washington Examiner’s Paul Bedard blogged on Oct. 25 about the Bloomberg story and incorrectly wrote that Jeep was "considering giving up on the United States and shifting production to China," a move that would "crash the economy in towns like Toledo, Ohio … ." The conservative Drudge Report then linked to Bedard’s post under the headline, "Jeep eyes shifting production to China."

Within hours, Chrysler spokesman Gualberto Ranieri responded on Chrysler’s company blog.

"Let’s set the record straight: Jeep has no intention of shifting production of its Jeep models out of North America to China," Ranieri wrote, adding, "A careful and unbiased reading of the Bloomberg take would have saved unnecessary fantasies and extravagant comments."

But later that night at a campaign stop in Defiance, Ohio, Romney added a new line to his stump speech:

"I saw a story today, that one of the great manufacturers in this state, Jeep, now owned by the Italians, is thinking of moving all production to China," he said, to boos from the audience. "I will fight for every good job in America. I’m going to fight to make sure trade is fair, and if it’s fair, America will win."

Romney’s campaign didn’t retreat, though. It doubled down with a TV ad for Ohio voters that weekend:

"Who will do more for the auto industry? Not Barack Obama," the ad began, adding, "Obama took GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy and sold Chrysler to Italians who are going to build Jeeps in China. Mitt Romney will fight for every American job." A similar radio ad soon followed.

That in turn prompted another unqualified denial, this time from Chrysler Chairman and CEO Sergio Marchionne, who said Jeep assembly lines "will remain in operation in the United States and will constitute the backbone of the brand. It is inaccurate to suggest anything different."

PolitiFact and other fact-checkers weighed in and said the ad was inaccurate. PolitiFact rated it Pants on Fire because it "strings together facts in a way that presents an wholly inaccurate picture."

Factcheck.org said Romney’s speech was "flat wrong" and the ad was misleading. The Washington Post’s Fact Checker gave the ad four Pinocchios, saying, "This ad shows that we have entered the final, desperate week of the campaign."

[mdgator05]

A good description of what a car model is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_model

An automobile model (or car model or model of car, and typically abbreviated to just "model") is a particular brand of vehicle sold under a marque by a manufacturer, usually within a range of models, usually of different sizes or capabilities.

So they will produce all of their brands under the marque of the Jeep manufacturer. That does not mean, as Romney stated, all production is being considered for a move to China. You realize that most cars models have multiple assembly plants to serve different regions right?

Does this help you better understand the difference?

[rivergator]

A good description of what a car model is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_model



So they will produce all of their brands under the marque of the Jeep manufacturer. That does not mean, as Romney stated, all production is being considered for a move to China. You realize that most cars models have multiple assembly plants to serve different regions right?

Does this help you better understand the difference?

I used the Budweiser example before. Anheuser Busch may make all of its styles of beer in the Jax brewery. But that doesn't mean every Bud and Bud Light in the world is made there.

[malligator]

"All of its models." Basic reading comprehension. A model is a type of car. A Grand Cherokee is a car model.

Very basic reading comprehension here: all models means that they will make the Grand Cherokee, Patriot, Wrangler, Liberty, Cherokee, etc. in China. It does not mean they will make all of the individual cars in China. In fact, they are going to make Grand Cherokees in both the US and China.

You should quit digging as you are already pretty deep in the hole here.

And Jeep is the brand--not a model. It could be read multiple ways, no matter how much you want it to be one.

[mdgator05]

And Jeep is the brand--not a model. It could be read multiple ways, no matter how much you want it to be one.

No it really can't. Jeep is the marque brand. The Liberty, Patriot, Grand Cherokee, and Cherokee are the models. They are considering producing each of those models in China. Romney said that they were considering moving all production to China. That is not true. Regardless of how much you want it to be true.

[malligator]

Yes, it really can and you're being obtuse for not admitting it. I don't really care. Romney is done and being swept under the rug so it's moot. I'm just appalled by your unwarranted condesention to other posters simply due to your political bias.

[mdgator05]

Yes, it really can and you're being obtuse for not admitting it. I don't really care. Romney is done and being swept under the rug so it's moot. I'm just appalled by your unwarranted condesention to other posters simply due to your political bias.

And I'm appalled by how purposefully blind your political bias has made you.

A car model is a well established enough concept that it is regularly used in branding classes as an example. And yet, purely for political reasons, we have people here completely misunderstanding the word "model."

Once again, making a car model in a country doesn't mean that all of the production for that model is in that country. Even if Mitt Romney tried to say so.

[Gatorrick22]

There you go. If say something false now, it's not really false, because it might happen in the future?

Kind of like Obama-care. We vote for it two years ago, not knowing how bad it really is, and then by the time they implement it, it's too late to get rid of it.

[baygator1]

Exactly. Romney said they were moving jobs from Ohio to China. That was false. And it's still false.

It should be much less controversial to say these jobs fall into the categories of saved and/or created. Although I'm not sure the original geographic context was in China. :grin:

[malligator]

The difference between you and I is that I can see both ways it could be read. I'm sure you can, too, but you won't admit it. I'm more than willing to admit that your interpretation is the correct one, but choosing the other interpretation makes one incorrect, not the biggest liar in the country. Sort of like saying you can see Russia from Alaska makes one correct, not the biggest idiot in politics, but the media machine is very good at painting a false picture.

If the original quote was "Fiat SpA (F), majority owner of Chrysler Group LLC, plans to return Wrangler output to China and may eventually make all of its models in that country, according to the head of both automakers’ operations in the region." then the intrepation would swing more strongly toward your interpretation. Jeep (the brand) starts making one model (the Wrangler) in China with plans to increase the number of models. Instead, they said Jeep (could mean any/all models) and models (could incorrectly mean all cars).

I'm hoping Romney had more intel than just this article which, incidentally, isn't a direct quote so we don't even know if the word 'model' was actually used.

So, I get what you're saying, and, unlike you, am willing to admit it, but I also see another valid interpretation even if I don't think it's correct.

[gatorpa]

The difference between you and I is that I can see both ways it could be read. I'm sure you can, too, but you won't admit it. I'm more than willing to admit that your interpretation is the correct one, but choosing the other interpretation makes one incorrect, not the biggest liar in the country. Sort of like saying you can see Russia from Alaska makes one correct, not the biggest idiot in politics, but the media machine is very good at painting a false picture.

If the original quote was "Fiat SpA (F), majority owner of Chrysler Group LLC, plans to return Wrangler output to China and may eventually make all of its models in that country, according to the head of both automakers’ operations in the region." then the intrepation would swing more strongly toward your interpretation. Jeep (the brand) starts making one model (the Wrangler) in China with plans to increase the number of models. Instead, they said Jeep (could mean any/all models) and models (could incorrectly mean all cars).

I'm hoping Romney had more intel than just this article which, incidentally, isn't a direct quote so we don't even know if the word 'model' was actually used.

So, I get what you're saying, and, unlike you, am willing to admit it, but I also see another valid interpretation even if I don't think it's correct.

My point exactly

[DaveFla]

The humor is because that isn't what is happening, and yet Dave claimed it was. They are adding jobs in China at the same time as they are adding jobs in the US.

Wow. I thought this was yet another of my mysterious disappearing threads... I'm glad I was able to find it again to see you eat your words.

[DaveFla]

We already addressed that once. Making some of each Chrysler model in China to sell in China is not the same thing as moving ALL production to China.

Ahhh.. The shifting of the goalposts.

[fredsanford]

Ahhh.. The shifting of the goalposts.

That's your specialty.

[rivergator]

Ahhh.. The shifting of the goalposts.

You know, that's what Romney claimed. That Chrysler was going to s hift all production to China.

[g8orbill]

he said he read a story about it and you libs and the lib press turned it into something it wasn't

[gatordee]

I sure hope we get Ramsey!

[mdgator05]

Wow. I thought this was yet another of my mysterious disappearing threads... I'm glad I was able to find it again to see you eat your words.

I don't think you are understanding what is going on here. We have conclusively proven you wrong. Try to keep up.

Cliff's Notes if you are still having trouble:

1. You claimed that the issue was whether China was going to build a model in China. This was, of course, never the issue.
2. It was shown that the actual dispute was over whether Jeep was going to move all production to China, as Romney claimed (exact quote: "Jeep, now owned by the Italians, is thinking of moving all production to China.")
3. It was pointed out that expanding production for one model in China, and considering expanding their Chinese production for all of their models is not the same as thinking about moving all production to China. Jeep has not shifted their production ("moving") but is rather expanding in both the US and China.
4. You impotently claimed victory.