I think even MadGator will concede....

[akaGatorhoops]

....we miss our "zero sum" player, Erving Walker, on the press.
For all of his attributes, Wilby has been largely inept when facing full court pressure.
This team will have to rely on passing and spacing to break pressure... and unless it learns how, that will ultimately be the undoing of our season.

[lean_gator]

Yes, we get it.

[akaGatorhoops]

Yes, we get it.

There wasn't a punchline in there.

[GatorsGators]

....we miss our "zero sum" player, Erving Walker, on the press.
For all of his attributes, Wilby has been largely inept when facing full court pressure.
This team will have to rely on passing and spacing to break pressure... and unless it learns how, that will ultimately be the undoing of our season.That's not true whatsoever. Only one of our turnovers in that run can be attributed to Wilbekin, and that was when he got caught up in a trap already past halfcourt. The other turnovers were due to the bigs (mainly Murphy) not knowing who to pass the ball to.

[akaGatorhoops]

That's not true whatsoever. Only one of our turnovers in that run can be attributed to Wilbekin, and that was when he got caught up in a trap already past halfcourt. The other turnovers were due to the bigs (mainly Murphy) not knowing who to pass the ball to.

True... my wording was poor and did not intend to direct blame only to Wilby. When I say inept, it is relating to his inability to simply dribble thru the pressure... which is something we took for granted the past few years.
Again... this team will rely on a more traditional press break, but has yet to master the spacing and passing. And true... not nearly all of that can be put on wilby.

[ufgator4ever]

Somewhere ewalk just jacked up a three.

[cudigator]

somewhere ewalk just jacked up a three.

and it's good!! :)

[GatorsGators]

True... my wording was poor and did not intend to direct blame only to Wilby. When I say inept, it is relating to his inability to simply dribble thru the pressure... which is something we took for granted the past few years.
Again... this team will rely on a more traditional press break, but has yet to master the spacing and passing. And true... not nearly all of that can be put on wilby.I do agree that Walker was great at single-handedly breaking down the press, but I don't think Wilbekin is as bad as some make him out to be in that regard. We'll just have to get better at breaking the press through passing and spacing, which can be just as effective as dribbling through the press when mastered.

[InstiGATOR1]

....we miss our "zero sum" player, Erving Walker, on the press.
For all of his attributes, Wilby has been largely inept when facing full court pressure.
This team will have to rely on passing and spacing to break pressure... and unless it learns how, that will ultimately be the undoing of our season.

As one of the most vocal critics of E.Walker, this is what I said continually during the off season. However UF has had most of its problems against zone presses this year. Those also gave Walker some problems.

[akaGatorhoops]

I do agree that Walker was great at single-handedly breaking down the press, but I don't think Wilbekin is as bad as some make him out to be in that regard. We'll just have to get better at breaking the press through passing and spacing, which can be just as effective as dribbling through the press when mastered.

Agree!

[HALLGATOR]

I do agree that Walker was great at single-handedly breaking down the press, but I don't think Wilbekin is as bad as some make him out to be in that regard. We'll just have to get better at breaking the press through passing and spacing, which can be just as effective as dribbling through the press when mastered.

Scottie brings a lot to the team and we are fortunate to have him. The more he has a chance to go against the pressure the better.

[SwampFox]

It is WAY too late for the "Zero Sum Club" to retract their misgivings. Ewalk was a baller. Most of us who know baskeball knew that. The kid was a master at breaking the press. Wilby is simply not at that level.

We are in the SEC schedule part of the season, and we appear to be no better than at the seaons's start in this regard.

Come tournament time, it will be or "wilby" our achilles heel..........

[akaGatorhoops]

Scottie brings a lot to the team and we are fortunate to have him. The more he has a chance to go against the pressure the better.

True, though I think we will attack the press differently than we have in years past. Scottie is less capable of bating pressure with the dribble, but is more apt to see over defenders and make good passing decisions. Our approach is different, and though it should be effective... needs to improve.

[gatorev12]

I'll give Walker credit for two things: he could consistently beat the press and could consistently make FTs. He had a fearless streak in him that helped him at times--and hurt him (and the team) on others.

Overall, his defensive liabilities and his turnovers due to out of control and careless play probably make losing him a "zero sum."

[tommyuf21]

I'll give Walker credit for two things: he could consistently beat the press and could consistently make FTs. He had a fearless streak in him that helped him at times--and hurt him (and the team) on others.

Overall, his defensive liabilities and his turnovers due to out of control and careless play probably make losing him a "zero sum."

I think one of the benefits of being shorter is that it's difficult for taller defenders to get at the ball.

Also, as a shorter player, you are forced to work harder at the things that you can control, such as ballhandling.

I've always been a Walker defender, especially after the attacks by some here, who so disliked the idea that we would have someone so short playing here. It was as they were insulted that Florida would stoop so low (no pun intended) to have someone who shouldn't be playing Division hoops on their roster (as opposed to being a ballboy or manager).

Of course, not acknowledging Walker's shortcomings in decision making and his defensive liability that his lack of height created would be misquided as well.

All in all, we were better for having Walker and the record books reflect that. I remind some that in his freshman year, noone (not even our great Parade AA guard) would put their rear end on the line and even attempt to win the game except for the little guy.

[g8tr80]

The problem with breaking the press was not Wilbekin but a couple of our bigs picking up their dribble in really, really bad spots. Screaming at Murphy to dribble the ball AWAY from the corner at the half court line. Stupid rookie mistakes.

[tommyuf21]

The problem with breaking the press was not Wilbekin but a couple of our bigs picking up their dribble in really, really bad spots. Screaming at Murphy to dribble the ball AWAY from the corner at the half court line. Stupid rookie mistakes.

I agree with you. Scottie messed up in the half court situation where they trapped him to the mid court, but the other miscues were the fault of Murphy, Yeguette and one other situation were the ball was mishandled by someone besides #5.

[InstiGATOR1]

I agree with you. Scottie messed up in the half court situation where they trapped him to the mid court, but the other miscues were the fault of Murphy, Yeguette and one other situation were the ball was mishandled by someone besides #5.

And Young looking up and not handling the easy pass to him in the front court one time. I think that was one of Wilbekin's turnovers.

[tampajack1]

Erv is having a great season in Italy.

[themistocles]

Although on rare occasion, one can find a guard that will single handedly break a press, a press is a team process, no single player can successfully engineer a press and, breaking the press also, always has been, and will remain so forever a team process.

The fact that the Gators fail at breaking pressure sometimes can be attributed to one thing, and one thing only: coaching.

As Billy D noted regarding Roasio's apparent errors at the end of the Arizona debacle, he didn't do it by himself, it took the help of his teammates to cause the mistakes.

The same is always, and will always be true.


PEOPLE LOVE TO CREATE HEREOS AND VILLAINs, but in fact, such are extraordinarily rare phenomena.

[HALLGATOR]

The fact that the Gators fail at breaking pressure sometimes can be attributed to one thing, and one thing only: coaching.

.

Don't agree with that at all. The ability of the players also figures into it.

[InstiGATOR1]

Erv is having a great season in Italy.

He is. Here are his stats through 13 games:

http://www.eurobasket.com/team.asp?Cntry=Italy&Team=5233&Page=3

[akaGatorhoops]

Thanks for the link! Well done, erv. Nearly 41% from the arc, nearly 90% from the line and over 17ppg.

[Row6]

True... my wording was poor and did not intend to direct blame only to Wilby. When I say inept, it is relating to his inability to simply dribble thru the pressure... which is something we took for granted the past few years.
Again... this team will rely on a more traditional press break, but has yet to master the spacing and passing. And true... not nearly all of that can be put on wilby.

+1

EW had a velcro handle.

[HALLGATOR]

It's real simple. The more points Erv scores the better he looks to the owners. The better he looks to the owners the more money they are willing to part with. The more money Erv makes the more tacos he can buy.

[gatordavisl]

The fact that the Gators fail at breaking pressure sometimes can be attributed to one thing, and one thing only: coaching. Shirley you jest.
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24611754.jpg

[rserina]

I loved Walker, but why...why...why do you invite this crap? It will go nowhere.

[akaGatorhoops]

I loved Walker, but why...why...why do you invite this crap? It will go nowhere.

I disagree. We have seen some admittedly strong erv critics acknowledge this lost aspect. That is progress for any discussion relating to waker! :)

[Killer_Rabbits]

Erv, oh, how I love thee.

[SwampFox]

It's real simple. The more points Erv scores the better he looks to the owners. The better he looks to the owners the more money they are willing to part with. The more money Erv makes the more tacos he can buy.

That part was just cold, man....

:whoa:

[HALLGATOR]

That part was just cold, man....

:whoa:

Yeah, it was but I couldn't help myself.

[MJGator8104]

Question...would the team (esp the upper classmen) handle the press better if they had not had a great one man press breaker on the team for four years? Not that I wish we hadn't had Walker but just alluding to the fact that, maybe, because the team expected and relied upon Walker to be a one man press breaker, their skill at team breaking the press was stifled a bit...

[akaGatorhoops]

Question...would the team (esp the upper classmen) handle the press better if they had not had a great one man press breaker on the team for four years? Not that I wish we hadn't had Walker but just alluding to the fact that, maybe, because the team expected and relied upon Walker to be a one man press breaker, their skill at team breaking the press was stifled a bit...

Yeah... Definitelyossible that the team practiced less a traditional press break bc it knew it could often dribble thru pressure. That said, a press break is somewhat fundamental, and the team should not need seasons off practice. This is especially true since they likely practice against their own press each day.

[rserina]

Donovan said in post game that it was essentially two things: 1) Bigs weren't coming to the ball and making themselves available for the pass when the ballhandler is trapped, and 2) when we beat the press, the ballhandler is picking up his dribble and ends up getting trapped in the halfcourt. One thing easy to overlook is how in the past we've had really smart passing/ballhandling froncourt players, from Parsons, Macklin, or Werner back to Horford and Noah. Those guys bailed out our guards a ton over the years.

[ofmgator]

Walker was a great player but his fearlessness used to drive me crazy. He'd drive the lane, go in too far and then lose the ball or be blocked. Based on that I'll always feel he hurt the team in critical moments. This team is just fine without him.

[ReggieNelson]

wilbekin is a below average ball handler for a pg

also seems like we picked up our dribble too close to the sidelines

[madgator]

for as critical as I always was regarding Walker's play. I always said that in the end he was zero-sum. So for all of those criticisms, there had to be positives.

yes, press breaking single-handidly was one of those strengths.


All in all, at 12-2 I am not in any sort of panic mode on any particular facet or issue with this team. Both loses were road losses against quality teams. In fact, I thought we played near perfect basketball against Zona for 37 1/2 minutes. The K-St. loss was just one of those games. We didn't match up well against them, they hit a lot of shots to kill every momentum run we made, and overall we were cold and generally sloppy.

If I do have any minor concerns it would be front court depth and the fact that we don't have a go to scorer (would kill to have Beal around this season).

I'm looking forward to our matchup with Mizzou on Saturday. That game will be a big progress meter as to where our team is at, especially our guard play.


as for walker, I am glad to see that he is playing well in the in the B league. perhaps this strong showing will earn him a promotion to either the A league or to a stronger league in another country.

always good to see a Gator succeed.

[tampajack1]

Walker was a great player but his fearlessness used to drive me crazy. He'd drive the lane, go in too far and then lose the ball or be blocked. Based on that I'll always feel he hurt the team in critical moments. This team is just fine without him.

Walker handled the ball a lot and averaged 2 turnovers per game.

[madgator]

Walker handled the ball a lot and averaged 2 turnovers per game.


extremely misleading stat. Walker was one of the worst I have seen as a Gator point guard in terms of both setting up team mates and giving passes that were received in the "right spots" for shot rhythm.


a very basic but extremely important fine point.


way too often Walker's passes would be caught at the knees or off and high to a side or on the defender side.

as was stated, Walker played a ton of minutes and handled the ball a whole bunch to only average 4.3 assists per game for his 3 year time as the primary point guard while averaging 2.33 turnovers during that same time.

[REM08]

Yeah, it was but I couldn't help myself.

Haha, I didn't even catch it the first time.

[NorthCaptivaGator]

extremely misleading stat. Walker was one of the worst I have seen as a Gator point guard in terms of both setting up team mates and giving passes that were received in the "right spots" for shot rhythm.

a very basic but extremely important fine point.

way too often Walker's passes would be caught at the knees or off and high to a side or on the defender side.

as was stated, Walker played a ton of minutes and handled the ball a whole bunch to only average 4.3 assists per game for his 3 year time as the primary point guard while averaging 2.33 turnovers during that same time.

He is the career leader in assists here, in 3 years at the point guard position, those 4.3 /game are better than anybody else who has ever played the position here over the same time frame, some of those passes must have somehow found there way in to a shooters hands

BTW, Scotty is really playing well in every aspect of the game other than against pressure defense, if we figure that out as a team we have a real good shot

[madgator]

He is the career leader in assists here, in 3 years at the point guard position, those 4.3 /game are better than anybody else who has ever played the position here over the same time frame, some of those passes must have somehow found there way in to a shooters hands

BTW, Scotty is really playing well in every aspect of the game other than against pressure defense, if we figure that out as a team we have a real good shot


Walker played enough PG his freshman year to average almost 3 assists per game. I said "primary" PG.

mind you, it took Walker 4 years to break a record that was held by a guy who played only 2.

if Taureen Green had stayed for a fourth year and added another 1200-1300 minutes played he would be ahead of Walker's totals.

when you play 4,400 career minutes, you better walk away with a couple of records......other than minutes played

[NorthCaptivaGator]

Walker played enough PG his freshman year to average almost 3 assists per game. I said "primary" PG.

mind you, it took Walker 4 years to break a record that was held by a guy who played only 2.

if Taureen Green had stayed for a fourth year and added another 1200-1300 minutes played he would be ahead of Walker's totals.

when you play 4,400 career minutes, you better walk away with a couple of records......other than minutes played

Walker played three years at point, Cdlathes was the point guard in Walker's freshman year and had a boatload of assists Walker played the two

Where does Walker stand in career assists per game stats at UF?

[tampajack1]

Walker played three years at point, Cdlathes was the point guard in Walker's freshman year and had a boatload of assists Walker played the two

Where does Walker stand in career assists per game stats at UF?

If Walker could have passed to Walker, he would have broken the all-time assist record at UF by a mile. Unfortunately for Erv, he certainly holds the UF record for most wide open shots missed by players on the receiving end of his passes.

[InstiGATOR1]

If Walker could have passed to Walker, he would have broken the all-time assist record at UF by a mile. Unfortunately for Erv, he certainly holds the UF record for most wide open shots missed by players on the receiving end of his passes.

Do you have any evidence to back up this conjecture? I doubt very much that any part of it is true. That is I doubt:

1. E.Walker passed to very many wide open teammates who missed shots.

2. Teammates missed shots at a higher percentage after passes from E.Walker than say from T.Green, Calathes, etc.

[akaGatorhoops]

mind you, it took Walker 4 years to break a record that was held by a guy who played only 2.


This ignores the fact that he also beat the mark of every player who was at uf for all 4 years.

That's pretty remarkable for player who supposedly lacked the ability to properly pass the ball.

[NorthCaptivaGator]

Walker played enough PG his freshman year to average almost 3 assists per game. I said "primary" PG.

mind you, it took Walker 4 years to break a record that was held by a guy who played only 2.

if Taureen Green had stayed for a fourth year and added another 1200-1300 minutes played he would be ahead of Walker's totals.

when you play 4,400 career minutes, you better walk away with a couple of records......other than minutes played

Walker is currently 10th all time in assists per game here at the University of Florida, having averaged 3.8 for his career. Take out his Freshman year, when he played the two and he is second, at 4.6 behind only Nick Calathes who averaged 6.28 assists per game in his two years at UF, the second of which he played with Erving Walker at the two. So, the statistics point out that Erving Walker averaged more assists per game as a starting point guard than guys like Ronnie Montgomery (3.87) Vernon Delancy (4.18) Eddie Shannon (4.25) and Taureen Green (3.58). By the way Ronnie Williams played 3900 mins and Eddie Shannon 3600.

So again, the facts contradict your opinion.

[akaGatorhoops]

Walker is currently 10th all time in assists per game here at the University of Florida, having averaged 3.8 for his career. Take out his Freshman year, when he played the two and he is second, at 4.6 behind only Nick Calathes who averaged 6.28 assists per game in his two years at UF, the second of which he played with Erving Walker at the two. So, the statistics point out that Erving Walker averaged more assists per game as a starting point guard than guys like Ronnie Montgomery (3.87) Vernon Delancy (4.18) Eddie Shannon (4.25) and Taureen Green (3.58). By the way Ronnie Williams played 3900 mins and Eddie Shannon 3600.

So again, the facts contradict your opinion.

Well played, sir.

[tommyuf21]

There's only one statistic that they are interested in; 5'8". In their minds, this is a not a game for someone that size and The University of Florida should never have to stoop so low as to have someone that short suit up for the Gators. They will never objectively look at him and assess his contributions in any way whatsoever, because in their minds, someone like him doesn't deserve an opportunity to play big boy ball.

[madgator]

There's only one statistic that they are interested in; 5'8". In their minds, this is a not a game for someone that size and The University of Florida should never have to stoop so low as to have someone that short suit up for the Gators. They will never objectively look at him and assess his contributions in any way whatsoever, because in their minds, someone like him doesn't deserve an opportunity to play big boy ball.

Absolutely ridiculous

[madgator]

Walker is currently 10th all time in assists per game here at the University of Florida, having averaged 3.8 for his career. Take out his Freshman year, when he played the two and he is second, at 4.6 behind only Nick Calathes who averaged 6.28 assists per game in his two years at UF, the second of which he played with Erving Walker at the two. So, the statistics point out that Erving Walker averaged more assists per game as a starting point guard than guys like Ronnie Montgomery (3.87) Vernon Delancy (4.18) Eddie Shannon (4.25) and Taureen Green (3.58). By the way Ronnie Williams played 3900 mins and Eddie Shannon 3600.

So again, the facts contradict your opinion.

let's dig a little deeper


Erving Walker played with much better surrounding talent than Eddie Shannon, Delancy, Williams, and Montgomery.....and really it's not even near comparable.

yet, despite playing more minutes and having better talent. By your calculations Walker could only average about a half of an assist more per game (taking only into account his peak statistics mind you) than all the players you named. And averaging about equal to or below all those players on a pure a/min basis for a career.

Shannon for example played 2 guard his junior year behind Jason Williams.

so there you go.....Walker's cumulative stats are not really as comparitively impressive when you examine all factors.

[NorthCaptivaGator]

let's dig a little deeper

Erving Walker played with much better surrounding talent than Eddie Shannon, Delancy, Williams, and Montgomery.....and really it's not even near comparable.

yet, despite playing more minutes and having better talent. By your calculations Walker could only average about a half of an assist more per game (taking only into account his peak statistics mind you) than all the players you named. And averaging about equal to or below all those players on a pure a/min basis for a career.

Shannon for example played 2 guard his junior year behind Jason Williams.

so there you go.....Walker's cumulative stats are not really as comparitively impressive when you examine all factors.

Second all-time career assists per game as a starting point guard. More than Taurean Green who played with the best talent in school history. End of discussion

[madgator]

how many less career minutes?

give green another season and another 6 minutes a game for his freshman year.

[akaGatorhoops]

let's dig a little deeper


Erving Walker played with much better surrounding talent than Eddie Shannon, Delancy, Williams, and Montgomery.....and really it's not even near comparable.

yet, despite playing more minutes and having better talent. By your calculations Walker could only average about a half of an assist more per game (taking only into account his peak statistics mind you) than all the players you named. And averaging about equal to or below all those players on a pure a/min basis for a career.

Shannon for example played 2 guard his junior year behind Jason Williams.

so there you go.....Walker's cumulative stats are not really as comparitively impressive when you examine all factors.

This is where you lose me, and prove yourself to be so backed into a corner that you fail to be objective.
You were just presented with information that shows Erv not only to be the all-time assist leader, but also among the best on a per-game basis.
Rather than acknowledge this, you try to undercut it as "not really as comparatively impressive". Do you realize how absurd that sounds?
I have acknowledged Erv's many faults, and recognize that a fair amount of your observations are correct.
But--- when in the face of facts and feats--- your default position is some version of, "well, that doesn't impress me"... you lose credibility in the debate.
It simply defies logic that a "poor passer" could tally the most assists in school history and average a comparatively high number of assists per game . . . all while also carrying a scoring role/burden.
You can easily make a case that he was a defensive liability or was too often reckless with ball, but instead --- you seem to argue against logic, facts, reason and statistics.

[madgator]

This is where you lose me, and prove yourself to be so backed into a corner that you fail to be objective.
You were just presented with information that shows Erv not only to be the all-time assist leader, but also among the best on a per-game basis.
Rather than acknowledge this, you try to undercut it as "not really as comparatively impressive". Do you realize how absurd that sounds?
I have acknowledged Erv's many faults, and recognize that a fair amount of your observations are correct.
But--- when in the face of facts and feats--- your default position is some version of, "well, that doesn't impress me"... you lose credibility in the debate.
It simply defies logic that a "poor passer" could tally the most assists in school history and average a comparatively high number of assists per game . . . all while also carrying a scoring role/burden.
You can easily make a case that he was a defensive liability or was too often reckless with ball, but instead --- you seem to argue against logic, facts, reason and statistics.


so the surrounding talent of those players is not a relevant factor?

the overall talent of the competition (particularly that in the SEC, or the bulk of the schedule) is also not relevant?

no doubt in mind mind that the SEC was a much tougher basketball conference from top to bottom in the '80s and '90s than it is today.

SEC has probably been at it's absolute weakest over the past 5 years over say a 20-30 year sample.

[akaGatorhoops]

how many less career minutes?

give green another season and another 6 minutes a game for his freshman year.

I do not have the figures, but green played a lot of minutes.

An additional year is rather irrelevant to a per-game discussion. Per the provided stats, Erv averaged more assists per game than green --- who, in my opinion was the best pg to ever wear a gator uniform.
TG also happened to have some pretty good teammates, so that argument is out.
So again, you are faced with the difficult task of explaining how a "poor passer" exceeded the personal accomplishments of some terrific players.
And seeing that "NorthCaptive" narrowed this down to a per-game analysis, and also provided TG as a comparison--- you are denied the crutch of "he played 4 years" or "he had a lot of talent".

[akaGatorhoops]

so the surrounding talent of those players is not a relevant factor?

the overall talent of the competition (particularly that in the SEC, or the bulk of the schedule) is also not relevant?

no doubt in mind mind that the SEC was a much tougher basketball conference from top to bottom in the '80s and '90s than it is today.

SEC has probably been at it's absolute weakest over the past 5 years over say a 20-30 year sample.

See my above post and explain the TG comparison.

[madgator]

I do not have the figures, but green played a lot of minutes.

An additional year is rather irrelevant to a per-game discussion. Per the provided stats, Erv averaged more assists per game than green --- who, in my opinion was the best pg to ever wear a gator uniform.
TG also happened to have some pretty good teammates, so that argument is out.
So again, you are faced with the difficult task of explaining how a "poor passer" exceeded the personal accomplishments of some terrific players.
And seeing that "NorthCaptive" narrowed this down to a per-game analysis, and also provided TG as a comparison--- you are denied the crutch of "he played 4 years" or "he had a lot of talent".

he was also cherry picking only the prime years of walkers career......I mentioned that Eddie Shannon basically lost a prime year at PG with jason williams coming in.

if you take the career averages in their entirity, walkers per minute average is below all the guys he mentioned including Green

[akaGatorhoops]

he was also cherry picking only the prime years of walkers career......I mentioned that Eddie Shannon basically lost a prime year at PG with jason williams coming in.

if you take the career averages in their entirity, walkers per minute average is below all the guys he mentioned including Green

no, he was not "cherry picking". you are manipulating the discussion.
he picked the years during which Erv was the starting pg.

again... how do you explain that, as pg, a "poor passer" accounted for more assists per game than did TG?

[rserina]

You guys are going to be arguing about this in a nursing home one day.

[gatorbogey]

one of the problems is perception. Ewalk followed calathes and green at pg. doubt few would measure up. [UK fans are seeing that right now w/ their current pg. kid's good, but not 'that' good compared to the guys they've had on the court recently].

people tend to collect the data/mistakes that fit their premise and discount other data. so some will be inclined to remember that bad pass, the drive too deep, the slip on a cut and others will remember the good things - the fearless drives and kiss off the glass for the winner, the deep 3, the impeccable pass, etc.

[gatorbogey]

You guys are going to be arguing about this in a nursing home one day.

HA!
good one....
and: :yes:

[gatordavisl]

Walker is currently 10th all time in assists per game here at the University of Florida, having averaged 3.8 for his career. Take out his Freshman year, when he played the two and he is second, at 4.6 behind only Nick Calathes who averaged 6.28 assists per game in his two years at UF, the second of which he played with Erving Walker at the two. So, the statistics point out that Erving Walker averaged more assists per game as a starting point guard than guys like Ronnie Montgomery (3.87) Vernon Delancy (4.18) Eddie Shannon (4.25) and Taureen Green (3.58). By the way Ronnie Williams played 3900 mins and Eddie Shannon 3600.

So again, the facts contradict your opinion. Good post. The discussion should have ended here, but as rserina notes, it will continue to the nursing home. :laugh:
Too bad that a discussion about Erv's ability to break the press devolved into an argument about assists. Again, once the facts were inserted in the discussion, there should have been a concession.

[madgator]

You guys are going to be arguing about this in a nursing home one day.

Probably

[madgator]

no, he was not "cherry picking". you are manipulating the discussion.
he picked the years during which Erv was the starting pg.

again... how do you explain that, as pg, a "poor passer" accounted for more assists per game than did TG?


Taking out Walker's first year when he didn't start at PG, is cherry picking stats. Especially if you are also going to count Green freshman year when he didn't start and averaged 25% less minutes per game than Walker did his freshman year.

During his time as the starting PG, Green averaged 4.2 assist per game. Walker averaged 4.3.

That is the most fair comparison. They were playing about equal minutes both as a the starting PG.


Now, to go back to what has been called the "irrelevant" factor of surrounding talent and how that doesn't quite factor in.

Green had the great fortune or for the purpose of this debate misfortune, of playing with individuals who I consider two of the greatest post passers in college basketball that I have ever seen.

Let's look at the stats. For the sake of a fair comparison. I am going to use 2 years for each players team mates.

Greens sophomore and junior years and Walker junior and senior years. Again, this is only to build the most fair comparison.

Joakim Noah averaged 2.2 assists per game and Al Horford averaged 2.1 assists per game

Corey Brewer averaged 3.1 assists per game and Lee Humphrey 1.6.

Let's look at Walker's team mates.

Macklin averaged 0.8 assists per game. Tyus 0.6
Young averaged 1.1 and Eric Murphy 0.8

Chandler Parsons averaged 3.2
Brad Beal 2.2

Kenny Boynton 2.7 (over the two years)


So Taurean Green's team mates over those two years averaged 9 assists per game

Erving Walker's 7.3 and 6.8 for his junior and senior seasons.


This tells me that the skill sets of Green's team mates were much more diverse which means that a pass from Green to a team mate had basically a 22% more chance of leading to an assist by a team mate.

Like I said earlier, the team dynamics were considerably different which gave Walker a greater chance of getting assists throughout the game.


I know I said this earlier; team dynamics, surrounding talent etc. The stats prove my point.

is it irrelevant?

[NorthCaptivaGator]

Taking out Walker's first year when he didn't start at PG, is cherry picking stats. Especially if you are also going to count Green freshman year when he didn't start and averaged 25% less minutes per game than Walker did his freshman year.

During his time as the starting PG, Green averaged 4.2 assist per game. Walker averaged 4.3.

That is the most fair comparison. They were playing about equal minutes both as a the starting PG.

Now, to go back to what has been called the "irrelevant" factor of surrounding talent and how that doesn't quite factor in.

Green had the great fortune or for the purpose of this debate misfortune, of playing with individuals who I consider two of the greatest post passers in college basketball that I have ever seen.

Let's look at the stats. For the sake of a fair comparison. I am going to use 2 years for each players team mates.

Greens sophomore and junior years and Walker junior and senior years. Again, this is only to build the most fair comparison.

Joakim Noah averaged 2.2 assists per game and Al Horford averaged 2.1 assists per game

Corey Brewer averaged 3.1 assists per game and Lee Humphrey 1.6.

Let's look at Walker's team mates.

Macklin averaged 0.8 assists per game. Tyus 0.6
Young averaged 1.1 and Eric Murphy 0.8

Chandler Parsons averaged 3.2
Brad Beal 2.2

Kenny Boynton 2.7 (over the two years)

So Taurean Green's team mates over those two years averaged 9 assists per game

Erving Walker's 7.3 and 6.8 for his junior and senior seasons.

This tells me that the skill sets of Green's team mates were much more diverse which means that a pass from Green to a team mate had basically a 22% more chance of leading to an assist by a team mate.

Like I said earlier, the team dynamics were considerably different which gave Walker a greater chance of getting assists throughout the game.

I know I said this earlier; team dynamics, surrounding talent etc. The stats prove my point.

is it irrelevant?

Keep trying to spin it mad, you are becoming more and more irrelevant with each post. Green had the option opportunity to pass to Lee Humphrey, perhaps the greatest three-point shooter in the history of the University of Florida He also had two guys in the paint with great hands who could finish consistently against even best talent in the country. Those teams scored more points per game than Walker's teams did, so of course those teams averaged more assists per game then Walker's did. Finally, none of this changes the fact that your post stating that Walker was not an accurate, effective passer from the point guard position was totally false and is a biased opinion contradicted by facts Take your ball and go home, try again another day. Walker's gone, making good money, playing a game he loves, find somebody else to pick on.

[akaGatorhoops]

Taking out Walker's first year when he didn't start at PG, is cherry picking stats. Especially if you are also going to count Green freshman year when he didn't start and averaged 25% less minutes per game than Walker did his freshman year.

During his time as the starting PG, Green averaged 4.2 assist per game. Walker averaged 4.3.

That is the most fair comparison. They were playing about equal minutes both as a the starting PG.


Now, to go back to what has been called the "irrelevant" factor of surrounding talent and how that doesn't quite factor in.

Green had the great fortune or for the purpose of this debate misfortune, of playing with individuals who I consider two of the greatest post passers in college basketball that I have ever seen.

Let's look at the stats. For the sake of a fair comparison. I am going to use 2 years for each players team mates.

Greens sophomore and junior years and Walker junior and senior years. Again, this is only to build the most fair comparison.

Joakim Noah averaged 2.2 assists per game and Al Horford averaged 2.1 assists per game

Corey Brewer averaged 3.1 assists per game and Lee Humphrey 1.6.

Let's look at Walker's team mates.

Macklin averaged 0.8 assists per game. Tyus 0.6
Young averaged 1.1 and Eric Murphy 0.8

Chandler Parsons averaged 3.2
Brad Beal 2.2

Kenny Boynton 2.7 (over the two years)


So Taurean Green's team mates over those two years averaged 9 assists per game

Erving Walker's 7.3 and 6.8 for his junior and senior seasons.


This tells me that the skill sets of Green's team mates were much more diverse which means that a pass from Green to a team mate had basically a 22% more chance of leading to an assist by a team mate.

Like I said earlier, the team dynamics were considerably different which gave Walker a greater chance of getting assists throughout the game.


I know I said this earlier; team dynamics, surrounding talent etc. The stats prove my point.

is it irrelevant?

So where you had previously suggested the other guards being compared to walker were handcuffed by inferior surrounding talent, you are not making a case that green's teammates were too good?!
I am sure you see how dizzying your arguments become.

[madgator]

Keep trying to spin it mad, you are becoming more and more irrelevant with each post. Green had the option opportunity to pass to Lee Humphrey, perhaps the greatest three-point shooter in the history of the University of Florida He also had two guys in the paint with great hands who could finish consistently against even best talent in the country. Those teams scored more points per game than Walker's teams did, so of course those teams averaged more assists per game then Walker's did. Finally, none of this changes the fact that your post stating that Walker was not an accurate, effective passer from the point guard position was totally false and is a biased opinion contradicted by facts Take your ball and go home, try again another day. Walker's gone, making good money, playing a game he loves, find somebody else to pick on.


I'm not spinning anything. Stats show that a pass from Green to a team mate was 22% more likely to result in a team mates assist than Walker.

and I will reiterate that Walker was not an accurate passer. These are things I look for that always used to drive me up the wall with Walker.

Another thing that used to drive me nuts. Which I don't know is the result of an average basketball IQ or just a reckless mentality. Walker would more often than not either pass the ball or drive the ball to the defensive strong side. Like he couldn't recognize defensive shifts or rotations.

A few months ago I asked if anyone was watching that "behind the scenes" show on UK. Did you ever watch it? There was one episode that shows the importance of the subtleties of footwork and positioning on the court AT ALL TIMES.

The point guard was initiating a play and Caliperi went absolutely bazerk on the kid because he was off on his spot to start the play by MAYBE a foot or less and didn't have his body in the proper position because he was too upright.

One foot of positioning, that is how subtle proper basketball can be. positioning, footwork, body posture, utilization of your shoulders, floor balance, spacing, court awareness. the list is literally endless and all of these issues have circumstantial importance.

random example. on a defensive rotation where a player has to run out to a perimeter shooter. There is a proper foot to lead out on that is dependant on where the shooter is on the perimeter. Yes, for a defensive player there is a right and wrong foot in which to take your first step out on to drive out to the shooter and yes, I do notice if guys do it right and when they do it wrong. As well as the reasons why they took the wrong step. Usually if things were done correctly leading up to that moment, the correct first step would be natural.

some people see and understand these things.....some people don't. not anyones fault. Could be the result of amount played, who coached you, individual aptitude. etc.

When I see Erving Walker drive into the lane and run directly into the big fat guy on UCLA there is a sequence of events that lead to that happening and all of it was wrong. The fact that he got lucky and saved himself by throwing up a prayer makes people who don't understand that everything they saw was bad basketball.

There's an asthetic to the game and when it's done right, it's beautiful. Like a dance. The steps have to be coordinated and correct. Subtlety counts.

Can you win games being slightly off? Can you even be the best in the country? perhaps. But I for one will notice the difference.

think about it like olympic judging of diving or gymnastics. lay people don't know what the difference is between a say a 9.1 dive and a 9.3. So they'll just say it's subjective. When in actuality it's not. Some people recognize the subtlety......most don't.

[madgator]

So where you had previously suggested the other guards being compared to walker were handcuffed by inferior surrounding talent, you are not making a case that green's teammates were too good?!
I am sure you see how dizzying your arguments become.


My arguement is that the quality of the overall basketball was much much much better with the '04s and I'm not just talking about wins and losses and championships.

we were fortunate to have players who basketball fundamentals, individual bball IQs, diverse skill sets, affinity for playing with each other, and focus were all channeled and coordinated.

all of which led to their ability to make plays on the court that players that we've had since would never think to attempt. For example post passing.

Vernon Macklin for example averaged more shot attempts per game than Joakim Noah did. Yet, Noah averaged more points per game.


So it's not a matter of team mates being too good. It's a matter of A leading to B leading to C.

the possibilities of events were greater after Green gave up the ball than Walker because of the abilities of his team mates. Which of course would result in less assists per game for Green.

even though it was only .1 difference per game.

[MJGator8104]

I think at this point it's obvious he will concede nothing which is his right, so, just close this thread and end this otherwise endless argument...

[madgator]

I think at this point it's obvious he will concede nothing which is his right, so, just close this thread and end this otherwise endless argument...

or you could just not open and read it.....


why the need to control the conversation of others?


what am I to concede? That Walker was a better PG than Green? Strictly because he had more assists? Because he could dribble through a press?

What is the point to which I am to concede? No one seems to be making that. All I'm doing is pointing out why I feel that Walker is not better than say Green.

Stats don't necessarily tell the whole story.

[akaGatorhoops]

My arguement is that the quality of the overall basketball was much much much better with the '04s and I'm not just talking about wins and losses and championships.

we were fortunate to have players who basketball fundamentals, individual bball IQs, diverse skill sets, affinity for playing with each other, and focus were all channeled and coordinated.

all of which led to their ability to make plays on the court that players that we've had since would never think to attempt. For example post passing.

Vernon Macklin for example averaged more shot attempts per game than Joakim Noah did. Yet, Noah averaged more points per game.


So it's not a matter of team mates being too good. It's a matter of A leading to B leading to C.

the possibilities of events were greater after Green gave up the ball than Walker because of the abilities of his team mates. Which of course would result in less assists per game for Green.

even though it was only .1 difference per game.

Of course, you ignore the parts of the equation that do not sport your contention.. namely that while the 06 team had more players capable of passing, any supposed dilution of green's assist opps -v- walker's would likely be offset by those teammates having a greater ability to score. As "north" said.... Green was on a team that scored more overall points and tallied more overall assists. Those, are facts you seem to disregard.
Also, do you not find it the least bit telling that you are struggling in this comparison to green, (arguably the best pg in our history) all while suggesting walker to be the "worst" passing gator guard you have seen?
One would think that such a poor passer would have a far lower benchmark for comparison. And when compared to t.g. .... your point should be far easier to make than it has been.

[akaGatorhoops]

What is the point to which I am to concede? No one seems to be making that. All I'm doing is pointing out why I feel that Walker is not better than say Green..

Ok...so have we moved off "worst passing guard" and "zero sum" player to ..."not better than green"?

I will happily concede the latter, but that has hardly been the debate.

[madgator]

Of course, you ignore the parts of the equation that do not sport your contention.. namely that while the 06 team had more players capable of passing, any supposed dilution of green's assist opps -v- walker's would likely be offset by those teammates having a greater ability to score. As "north" said.... Green was on a team that scored more overall points and tallied more overall assists. Those, are facts you seem to disregard.
Also, do you not find it the least bit telling that you are struggling in this comparison to green, (arguably the best pg in our history) all while suggesting walker to be the "worst" passing gator guard you have seen?
One would think that such a poor passer would have a far lower benchmark for comparison. And when compared to t.g. .... your point should be far easier to make than it has been.


Did the '06 team score more ppg than last year's team? I don't have time to look it up right now, but I don't think thats the case.

As for the comparison.....fine Eddie Shannon. I would rather have Eddie running my team over Walker any day.

I'm not saying that Walker played with a bunch of slouches. I said he played with team mates with more diverse skill sets which lead to greater variations of subsequent events.

[NorthCaptivaGator]

My arguement is that the quality of the overall basketball was much much much better with the '04s and I'm not just talking about wins and losses and championships.

we were fortunate to have players who basketball fundamentals, individual bball IQs, diverse skill sets, affinity for playing with each other, and focus were all channeled and coordinated.

all of which led to their ability to make plays on the court that players that we've had since would never think to attempt. For example post passing.

Vernon Macklin for example averaged more shot attempts per game than Joakim Noah did. Yet, Noah averaged more points per game.

So it's not a matter of team mates being too good. It's a matter of A leading to B leading to C.

the possibilities of events were greater after Green gave up the ball than Walker because of the abilities of his team mates. Which of course would result in less assists per game for Green.

even though it was only .1 difference per game.

Step away from the keyboard mad, you are in way over your head here,. By the way, how many assists do you think those Macklin misses cost Erv?

[madgator]

Step away from the keyboard mad, you are in way over your head here,. By the way, how many assists do you think those Macklin misses cost Erv?


when you type this.....are you aware of Macklin's FG% during his days at UF?


I doubt it, cause if you did you wouldn't have typed that. Then again, maybe you would have


but I'M the one who is over my head here!

In a word.....

WOW!!!!!


in any attempt to prove me wrong on this subject he will talk about missed shots from the guy (who I am pretty sure) is in the top 5 all time on UF's all time FG% list with a 60% FG%.

seriously, you can't make this stuff up

[gatordavisl]

Honestly, AKA. Mad did not deserve this thread.

[madgator]

Honestly, AKA. Mad did not deserve this thread.


but yet, you felt the need to open, read, and contribute

the thread topic is clear. Addresses both Walker and me. You KNOW where that is going to go.


I say good job AKA for getting the board activity up. Been kind of dead around here recently. Almost 2000 views on this thread and the most new threads opened up in the past 24 hours as there have been in the past 3 weeks.

[NorthCaptivaGator]

when you type this.....are you aware of Macklin's FG% during his days at UF?

I doubt it, cause if you did you wouldn't have typed that. Then again, maybe you would have

but I'M the one who is over my head here!

In a word.....

WOW!!!!!

in any attempt to prove me wrong on this subject he will talk about missed shots from the guy (who I am pretty sure) is in the top 5 all time on UF's all time FG% list with a 60% FG%.

seriously, you can't make this stuff up

When you typed this were you aware of your direct quote regarding shot attempts/game vs points per game for Macklin vs Noah and the effect it may have had on the assists per game for their respective point guards?

Noah career .611
Macklin career .599

Actually they are career # 2 and # 3 all time at UF behind #1 Dwayne Davis

Btw #5 is, yep, you guessed it Al Horford
No one else from Walkers team is top 10

And just to rub salt into the wound
#3 all time 3 pt. % at UF Lee Humphrey .44

Murphy from Walkers teams is #8 .41

So first explain to me again which point guard would have an easier time garnering assists and then maybe you would like to explain how a center is able to rank third all time in career field goal percentage at UF when his point guard supposedly can't deliver a decent pass

Keep spinning - you should change your name to Tasmainian Gator

[akaGatorhoops]

Mad,

With all due respect.... you are getting killed here.
And as we have discussed before, I respect and even agree with some of your opinions regarding Walker. But for whatever reason, you stray off his legitimate faults.... and attempt to undercut his strengths and achievements. This suggests some sort of bias and agenda.
Suggesting that the all-time assist leader was the "worst passer", is a losing and silly battle. And a battle you have lost on every front in this thread.

You are entrenched in your position, yet I stubbornly bring the topic to the table time and again.

I am done.

go gators!

[akaGatorhoops]

Did the '06 team score more ppg than last year's team? I don't have time to look it up right now, but I don't think thats the case.


p.s. -- Yes.

2005-2006: 78.3ppg
2011-2012: 75.9ppg

Ok... now I'm done! :)

[tommyuf21]

I am done.

go gators!

He hates him because he is short. He was embarrassed that we had a short guy playing for us.

It's really that simple.

[madgator]

p.s. -- Yes.

2005-2006: 78.3ppg
2011-2012: 75.9ppg

Ok... now I'm done! :)


I said that I wasn't sure.....just remember that last year's team was high scoring. I believe at one point around mid-season the team was averaging 80+ points a game. Wasn't challenging, just wasn't sure where it ended up

[madgator]

He hates him because he is short. He was embarrassed that we had a short guy playing for us.

It's really that simple.


yeah because Taurean Green at 5'10 and Eddie Shannon who was maybe 5'10 were absolute giants

[madgator]

Mad,

With all due respect.... you are getting killed here.
And as we have discussed before, I respect and even agree with some of your opinions regarding Walker. But for whatever reason, you stray off his legitimate faults.... and attempt to undercut his strengths and achievements. This suggests some sort of bias and agenda.
Suggesting that the all-time assist leader was the "worst passer", is a losing and silly battle. And a battle you have lost on every front in this thread.

You are entrenched in your position, yet I stubbornly bring the topic to the table time and again.

I am done.

go gators!



I never once undercut a strength.

one of the results of Walkers out of control play were passes that were well off quality receiving position. Walker was never a point guard that came across as making the game easier for his team mates. As a point guard he was always a square peg being jammed in a round hole.

That is my only point. I just giving examples as to why I say that.

the only thing that they counter with is that he is the all-time leader in assists. to that I say that achievement is mitigated being that he is also the all-time leader in minutes.

I don't see how Vernon Macklin's FG% or the fact that Walker's assist per game as the starting point guard being .1 less than Taurean Green's "kills" me on this topic.


I'm accused of being entrenched in my position.....but have you read some of the defenses of Walker and the reasonings why his stats weren't better?

Did you see that in two posts someone went from saying that Walker would've had more assists if it wasn't for all of Macklins misses to then saying that Macklin shot a great FG% because of Walker's passes.

Did you miss that little gem?

I know you said you are done....but I would LOVE to hear your thoughts on that bit. Considering that this is about as far as one could possibly "move the goal posts."

[NorthCaptivaGator]

Walker was one of the worst I have seen as a Gator point guard in terms of both setting up team mates and giving passes that were received in the "right spots" for shot rhythm. .

You said the above on page 3 of this thread. I have shown you, repeatedly, with facts, how silly the above statement is. I will leave it at that.

[akaGatorhoops]

I never once undercut a strength.

one of the results of Walkers out of control play were passes that were well off quality receiving position. Walker was never a point guard that came across as making the game easier for his team mates. As a point guard he was always a square peg being jammed in a round hole.

That is my only point. I just giving examples as to why I say that.

the only thing that they counter with is that he is the all-time leader in assists. to that I say that achievement is mitigated being that he is also the all-time leader in minutes.

I don't see how Vernon Macklin's FG% or the fact that Walker's assist per game as the starting point guard being .1 less than Taurean Green's "kills" me on this topic.


I'm accused of being entrenched in my position.....but have you read some of the defenses of Walker and the reasonings why his stats weren't better?

Did you see that in two posts someone went from saying that Walker would've had more assists if it wasn't for all of Macklins misses to then saying that Macklin shot a great FG% because of Walker's passes.

Did you miss that little gem?

I know you said you are done....but I would LOVE to hear your thoughts on that bit. Considering that this is about as far as one could possibly "move the goal posts."

Of course you undercut his strengths and achievements. You stated that he was the "worst" passing point guard you have watched. That is an incredible statement considering he holds the all-time assist record. Now, I know you like to minimize that achievement by attributing it only to the amount of games that he played, but we have seen that Erv fairs very favorably on an per-game assist basis to some of the top point guards in our program's history.
When faced with such information, you undercut it... first by suggesting the comparing guards had less talent, only to reverse fields and suddenly state that the comparable (Green) had "too much" talent.
I asked before, but it is worth repeating: Do you not find it telling that your benchmark in this arguement is possibly the best guard in program history? Shouldn't the "worst passing pg" have a much lower level of comparison?

Look, I am not suggesting Erv was the ideal point guard or was without flaws. Far from it. But your repeated outlandish statements, such as "the worst passing gator point guard", suggest you are operating from a postion of bias and will go to any length to defend your agenda--- even if you must defy facts.

Also, you have been presented with far more than mere personal achievements --- but, of course, you disregard those. You dismiss the fact that UF returned to the NCAA Tourney for 3 straight years under his direction at pg, and advanced to the Elite Eight twice. Instead, you focus on the losses and attirubte successes to teammates. It is amazing to me that a person of seemingly sound basketball knowledge could place such little importance on the role of a pg --- that you think a team could achieve the level of success Florida did inspite of its "worst passing" pg.

I suspect that deep down, you know you are wrong on many fronts in this discussion... but are either too proud or too stubborn to admit that.

There are many observations you are correct about, but as I said earlier... for whatever reason, you prefer to veer off those and fight unwinnable battles --- as you did here. You seem to hate any priase of Walker and feel the need to vehemently argue against it, even --- and perhaps, especially --- when you have no ground to stand on.

[YakYak]

Happy Birthday Erving Walker!

[madgator]

Of course you undercut his strengths and achievements. You stated that he was the "worst" passing point guard you have watched. That is an incredible statement considering he holds the all-time assist record. Now, I know you like to minimize that achievement by attributing it only to the amount of games that he played, but we have seen that Erv fairs very favorably on an per-game assist basis to some of the top point guards in our program's history.
When faced with such information, you undercut it... first by suggesting the comparing guards had less talent, only to reverse fields and suddenly state that the comparable (Green) had "too much" talent.
I asked before, but it is worth repeating: Do you not find it telling that your benchmark in this arguement is possibly the best guard in program history? Shouldn't the "worst passing pg" have a much lower level of comparison?

Look, I am not suggesting Erv was the ideal point guard or was without flaws. Far from it. But your repeated outlandish statements, such as "the worst passing gator point guard", suggest you are operating from a postion of bias and will go to any length to defend your agenda--- even if you must defy facts.

Also, you have been presented with far more than mere personal achievements --- but, of course, you disregard those. You dismiss the fact that UF returned to the NCAA Tourney for 3 straight years under his direction at pg, and advanced to the Elite Eight twice. Instead, you focus on the losses and attirubte successes to teammates. It is amazing to me that a person of seemingly sound basketball knowledge could place such little importance on the role of a pg --- that you think a team could achieve the level of success Florida did inspite of its "worst passing" pg.

I suspect that deep down, you know you are wrong on many fronts in this discussion... but are either too proud or too stubborn to admit that.

There are many observations you are correct about, but as I said earlier... for whatever reason, you prefer to veer off those and fight unwinnable battles --- as you did here. You seem to hate any priase of Walker and feel the need to vehemently argue against it, even --- and perhaps, especially --- when you have no ground to stand on.

the quote

extremely misleading stat. Walker was one of the worst I have seen as a Gator point guard in terms of both setting up team mates and giving passes that were received in the "right spots" for shot rhythm.

Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas/showthread.php?t=254166&page=2#ixzz2ID48CNJL


"one of the worst"

Green is not "the benchmark." just the comparative example that got focused on as the discussion evolved.

but if you need a greater example. my point of reference goes back to the mid-'80s. I can think of maybe 1 that is worse by default.


going back to Green. my point was never that the surrounding talent HELPED him statistically. It was always that it more than likely hurt him in that regard. I also gave supporting statistics to illustrate this.


Don't get me wrong. I have my issues with Green as well. I probably wouldn't pick him as "my #1 gator pg." Extremely poor defensively. Yes, much worse than Walker and it's not even close. See a fair Walker compliment.

but man Green could manage a game. I can think of maybe less than 5 mistakes he made off the top of my head in the 2 years he ran the team.

[akaGatorhoops]

the quote

extremely misleading stat. Walker was one of the worst I have seen as a Gator point guard in terms of both setting up team mates and giving passes that were received in the "right spots" for shot rhythm.

Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas/showthread.php?t=254166&page=2#ixzz2ID48CNJL


"one of the worst"

Green is not "the benchmark." just the comparative example that got focused on as the discussion evolved.

but if you need a greater example. my point of reference goes back to the mid-'80s. I can think of maybe 1 that is worse by default.


going back to Green. my point was never that the surrounding talent HELPED him statistically. It was always that it more than likely hurt him in that regard. I also gave supporting statistics to illustrate this.


Don't get me wrong. I have my issues with Green as well. I probably wouldn't pick him as "my #1 gator pg." Extremely poor defensively. Yes, much worse than Walker and it's not even close. See a fair Walker compliment.

but man Green could manage a game. I can think of maybe less than 5 mistakes he made off the top of my head in the 2 years he ran the team.

ok... we are getting into semantics with your phrasing here, as "one of the worst" is still an absurd contention, imo.... and would not change any of my points or arguements within this thread.
Also... I understood very clearly what you were saying about TG. As I pointed out, in the case of other guards compared to Erv--- you suggested their numbers were hurt by inferior talent. Then, when presented with Green as a comparison--- you reversed fields and stated that Green's numbers were likely hurt by talent that was too capable. It served to point out that no matter what is presented to you, you will spin it in a direction to support your silly contention.
Alright... now I'm done! :)

[madgator]

ok... we are getting into semantics with your phrasing here, as "one of the worst" is still an absurd contention, imo.... and would not change any of my points or arguements within this thread.
Also... I understood very clearly what you were saying about TG. As I pointed out, in the case of other guards compared to Erv--- you suggested their numbers were hurt by inferior talent. Then, when presented with Green as a comparison--- you reversed fields and stated that Green's numbers were likely hurt by talent that was too capable. It served to point out that no matter what is presented to you, you will spin it in a direction to support your silly contention.
Alright... now I'm done! :)


is everything definite?

if I make a comment that abilities of team mates can effect the stats of a player. isn't it assumed that it could be both positive and negative. That every set of circumstances contribute to the outcome.

where a guy like Eddie Shannon might be effected negatively by having a really poor team around him for 3 of his 4 years. greens circumstance of having not only extremely talented team mates but ones that were multi-faceted could also in turn hurt his stats.

this is not logically inconsistent.

what is not only logically but factually inconsistent is saying that Walker's stats were hurt by all of Macklins misses and then say Macklin's great FG% was created because of Walker.

That is the very definition of intellectual dishonesty.

[akaGatorhoops]

is everything definite?

if I make a comment that abilities of team mates can effect the stats of a player. isn't it assumed that it could be both positive and negative. That every set of circumstances contribute to the outcome.

where a guy like Eddie Shannon might be effected negatively by having a really poor team around him for 3 of his 4 years. greens circumstance of having not only extremely talented team mates but ones that were multi-faceted could also in turn hurt his stats.

this is not logically inconsistent.

what is not only logically but factually inconsistent is saying that Walker's stats were hurt by all of Macklins misses and then say Macklin's great FG% was created because of Walker.

That is the very definition of intellectual dishonesty.

By suggesting some comparable guards did not have enough, while another had too much.... suggests that we would have to virtually replicate the exact circumstances of erv's career in order for you to acknowledge his passing achievements.
You have been provided a number of facts for each contention you have made, but counter everyone with a new argument. That is why I am signing off the debate.... Though I think I made the promise several poss ago, and even a season or two ago before that! Lol!

[madgator]

By suggesting some comparable guards did not have enough, while another had too much.... suggests that we would have to virtually replicate the exact circumstances of erv's career in order for you to acknowledge his passing achievements.
You have been provided a number of facts for each contention you have made, but counter everyone with a new argument. That is why I am signing off the debate.... Though I think I made the promise several poss ago, and even a season or two ago before that! Lol!


my point has always been that his assist record is more the result of games and minutes played and I would argue the maximum benefit of circumstances that any Gator PG has had judging from my frame of reference. Which is say 1985 or so through today.

For example of another circumstance. Eddie Shannon average 4.2 assists a game in the 1997-1998 season and for 20 games he played the 2 guard. Eddie even received a HUGE decrease in early season minutes his senior year as he missed the first 5 games as he recovered from his eye surgery. He also played less overall games than because they only made the post-season once during his time there.

and despite the numerous disadvantages, Eddie was still only 50 total assists behind Walker.

[akaGatorhoops]

Again, you are left having to argue that the circumstances aligned so incredibly well, and so remarkably better than all other past players--- that they allowed for "one of the worst" passing guards to break the all-time assist record and rank highly on a per-game assist basis.
It is just an absurd suggestion... yet you cling to it.
Seriously, I'm done. :)

[madgator]

Again, you are left having to argue that the circumstances aligned so incredibly well, and so remarkably better than all other past players--- that they allowed for "one of the worst" passing guards to break the all-time assist record and rank highly on a per-game assist basis.
It is just an absurd suggestion... yet you cling to it.
Seriously, I'm done. :)


it is what it is. fundamentally speaking, the worst PG (not worst player playing PG, but the worst PG from the point of view of the attributes that make a point guard) our program has had in past 30 years is our schools all time assist leader.

Fact is that our assist record, where is it numbers wise is comparitively really low.

if Nick Calathes had stuck around another year it would have at least looked somewhat respectable in the 700s somewhere.