Obesity Is Not Killing Us ...

[Dreamliner]

More on the recently released compilation of studies showing people who are overweight with less mortality risks than people of normal weight:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/10/rethinking-thin.html

For the record, because I've been muddled for awhile about the supposed link between obesity and mortality, I have never resorted to fearmongering with fat people. In fact, I never badger people about their weight. That's entirely their business. I turn my attention and efforts towards people who think their fat is ugly.

[LeafUF]

Without reading the studies there is just so much more I want to know. Initially, I think this is just a marketing ploy by Big Pharma to keep people medicated. Where as recently I have met a number of women who have lost significant weight through diet and exercise and also gotten themselves off all sorts of meds.

Still, as I was reminded just the other day I live in a very appearance conscious city. Not a health conscious city. And it is much better to focus your efforts on vanity than improving anyones health.

[Dreamliner]

Without reading the studies there is just so much more I want to know. Initially, I think this is just a marketing ploy by Big Pharma to keep people medicated. Where as recently I have met a number of women who have lost significant weight through diet and exercise and also gotten themselves off all sorts of meds.

Still, as I was reminded just the other day I live in a very appearance conscious city. Not a health conscious city. And it is much better to focus your efforts on vanity than improving anyones health.

Don't know about Big Pharma, but researchers, and not a few medical specialists, appear to be accepting these findings, however grudgingly.

Also, a recent study suggests that obesity actually appears to confer at least some immunity against death by heart attack.

As I said, this doesn't affect my focus at all. There are plenty of folks out there who are unhappy about the way their fat *looks* without having to scare them into losing it.

[malscott]

I read the article she is referring too. It says people that are slightly overweight live longer healthier lives. Obese people die early. All those Europeans gals that walk to the village every day for 80 years are always 'stocky' they seem to do fine. When you are super portly is when you are asking for big trouble; obviously. Weight is a problem for a lot of us. I'm in great shape but still struggle to stay at the weight I prefer. I care what I look like. So maybe ego is my motivator, plus health concerns. A lot of folks have simply given up. I am empathetic to their situation. I think struggling with it is more stressful and depressing then just being heavy and accepting it.

[Dreamliner]

I read the article she is referring too. It says people that are slightly overweight live longer healthier lives. Obese people die early. All those Europeans gals that walk to the village every day for 80 years are always 'stocky' they seem to do fine. When you are super portly is when you are asking for big trouble; obviously. Weight is a problem for a lot of us. I'm in great shape but still struggle to stay at the weight I prefer. I care what I look like. So maybe ego is my motivator, plus health concerns. A lot of folks have simply given up. I am empathetic to their situation. I think struggling with it is more stressful and depressing then just being heavy and accepting it.

Obese, by BMI live longer than normal by BMI. Maybe you have morbid obesity in mind ?

An example of the type of person who lives longer is a new client of mine. She's had her bodyfat tested at over 36%. That's a LOT of fat to carry, in my opinion. But I can't tell her it's going to kill her. She may well outlive me with my 10% or less bodyfat.

Now, I do agree that people appear to be giving up on losing weight. I see it all around me. But this seeming lack of resolve may have something to do with either or both past failure and the mistaken notion that one must eliminate tasty foods and undertake arduous exercise routines to lose weight. I'm trying to wean folks off of this stuff.

[LeafUF]

I read the article she is referring too. It says people that are slightly overweight live longer healthier lives. Obese people die early. All those Europeans gals that walk to the village every day for 80 years are always 'stocky' they seem to do fine. When you are super portly is when you are asking for big trouble; obviously. Weight is a problem for a lot of us. I'm in great shape but still struggle to stay at the weight I prefer. I care what I look like. So maybe ego is my motivator, plus health concerns. A lot of folks have simply given up. I am empathetic to their situation. I think struggling with it is more stressful and depressing then just being heavy and accepting it.

A couple of other thoughts here, I read an article by Brad Pilon where he talks about BMI and how the numbers were rounded down to be nice neat numbers.

http://bradpilon.com/weight-loss/bmi-facts-and-fallacies/

The normal numbers originally went to 27.8 for men and 27.3 for women. This would most likely be game changer for a study like this. Because more people in that study who are being considered overweight are in fact normal according to the original intentions of the BMI. I am included in that gap with an overweight BMI but lower than average BF% and a good waist to hip ratio.

Your last point is what concerns me the most, while this study seems accurate what good is it going to do? Give people more reason to just accept the way they look and possibly feel.

[LeafUF]

Conclusions and Relevance Relative to normal weight, both obesity (all grades) and grades 2 and 3 obesity were associated with significantly higher all-cause mortality. Grade 1 obesity overall was not associated with higher mortality, and overweight was associated with significantly lower all-cause mortality. The use of predefined standard BMI groupings can facilitate between-study comparisons.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleID=1555137

[Dreamliner]

Possibly, but my point is that I have precious little evidence by which to scare people into losing weight. And I continue to be optimistic that there will always be plenty of people concerned about the way they look, never mind other factors.

BTW, McArdle spends probably half her article addressing the BMI issue.

Re: Pilon, whereas I wholeheartedly agree with much of what he says, he really jumped the gun on claims for calorie restriction and longevity.

[LeafUF]

She addresses the detractors and the convenient dismissal of BMI when it doesnt fit the result you want. I dont think she discusses how the numbers have been tweaked and how that would change the results. I think Pilon's article discusses that issue more specifically.

[Dreamliner]

She addresses the detractors and the convenient dismissal of BMI when it doesnt fit the result you want. I dont think she discusses how the numbers have been tweaked and how that would change the results. I think Pilon's article discusses that issue more specifically.

She actually talks about it at length. And fully half the comments section is her interacting with critics of BMI and talking about bodybuilders and competitive athletes. I get the strong impression that she gets the nuances.

But not miss another point. We are constantly assaulted by forbodings of skyrocketing obesity. And how is this spiraling phenomenon measured ? BMI, not by researchers looking around and remarking, "Gee, seems like I see a lot more fat people than I did ten years ago."

[Dreamliner]

And a recent Canadian study shows lower mortality risk for not only overweight and Class I Obesity but also Class II Obesity. The only high-risk groups were the underweight and the extreme upper-end of obesity:

http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2009/06/even-obesity-paradoxes-cant-excuse.html

[LeafUF]

So Dream, as Not Another Fitness Trainer you are going to focus on helping people look better if that is what they want. And for those looking improve their "health" what will you tell them about this information? I am honestly curious.

[Dreamliner]

So Dream, as Not Another Fitness Trainer you are going to focus on helping people look better if that is what they want. And for those looking improve their "health" what will you tell them about this information? I am honestly curious.

It's a fair question, but I honestly do not appeal to health. Rather, I appeal to purely subjective notions of look/feel/move. Now, my sister may get the upper-hand. she's the marketing expert. But I'd prefer that the new website be devoid of any references to health. This is partly because I know I can't guarantee it and partly because I'm trying to disassociate myself from obsession with health and longevity.

Of note: offhand I'd say the substantial majority of obese people I've worked with have been more concerned with look/feel/move than with health. Health may have been the 'presentation problem', but it became clear, down the road, that they just didn't want to be fat.

Ex: a recent obese client of mine was fairly upfront about needing to lose weight because he didn't want to suffer the fate of his father and mother, their apparent weight-related deaths. Father had heart disease and mother diabetes.

Father lived to be 82. Mother lived to be 80. I asked him, in so many words, "WTF ? Do you want to live forever ?" :laugh:

[LeafUF]

I hear ya but I kind of associate feel/move with health. It is not a purely vain pursuit in those cases. While it isnt the same as improving longevity or morbidity it isnt exactly just appearance in that case either. If your goal is to remove the term health from your pitch then the look/feel/move idea is great. I actually like that a lot the more I think about it.

[Dreamliner]

I hear ya but I kind of associate feel/move with health. It is not a purely vain pursuit in those cases. While it isnt the same as improving longevity or morbidity it isnt exactly just appearance in that case either. If your goal is to remove the term health from your pitch then the look/feel/move idea is great. I actually like that a lot the more I think about it.

Yeah, I realize full-well that when people eat less and move more ... health markers, whether objective or subjective, are bound to improve. In a way, it comes out in the wash.

[fl_champ]

Why are we so focused on this life, as if we're going to live forever? Big, small, tall, short, we act like the choices we make we're going to live forever, it saddens me. The thing I believe our main focus should be on is life after this life is over, JMO. For me I believe it's heaven or hell. Yes I know that not everyone shares the same view, I just find it odd for people that say they don't know about what life will be like after death that they spend all their time and energy on the here and now and think nothing about life after death. I know a little bit of an odd post but I think it holds some merit in this thread.

[Dreamliner]

Why are we so focused on this life, as if we're going to live forever? Big, small, tall, short, we act like the choices we make we're going to live forever, it saddens me. The thing I believe our main focus should be on is life after this life is over, JMO. For me I believe it's heaven or hell. Yes I know that not everyone shares the same view, I just find it odd for people that say they don't know about what life will be like after death that they spend all their time and energy on the here and now and think nothing about life after death. I know a little bit of an odd post but I think it holds some merit in this thread.

I do consider myself a Christian and I must tell you that Christians are as obsessed with any about health and longevity. I'm never surprised anymore when I see televangelists hawking supplements.

[LeafUF]

Ugh, really?!??!:roll::angry::devil::angel::dead:

[Dreamliner]

Ugh, really?!??!:roll::angry::devil::angel::dead:

Really, what ?

[LeafUF]

Really, what ?

Sorry, not you. One of my least favorite things is the concept that we should be living our lives for the afterlife as opposed to living for the here and now. I dont mind the argument and accept that others feel that way. I just dont see the place for that statement here in this thread or forum.

[Dreamliner]

Sorry, not you. One of my least favorite things is the concept that we should be living our lives for the afterlife as opposed to living for the here and now. I dont mind the argument and accept that others feel that way. I just dont see the place for that statement here in this thread or forum.

I understand. While we're on the topic I'll venture a couple of comments, one philosophical, one practical:

(1) I've never gotten the Christian's "hang on 'til heaven" mindset. At the same time, I've never gotten the non-Christian's argument that focusing on the afterlife saps motivation for excelling on this plain of existence. I believe the opposite is the case.

(2) Ironically, I don't see anything about the connection between food and longevity in the Bible. And yes, I do bring it up if a food-obsessed client of mine identifies themselves as a Bible-believer. Otherwise, I don't go preaching.

That's all I'm going to say on the topic.

[fl_champ]

Sorry, not you. One of my least favorite things is the concept that we should be living our lives for the afterlife as opposed to living for the here and now. I dont mind the argument and accept that others feel that way. I just dont see the place for that statement here in this thread or forum.

Leaf I don't understand the frustration. If that's what you're feeling by my comment. This is after all a discussion forum is it not. Why can't we have a civilized open conversation regarding this topic? I didn't come here to cause trouble but to simply talk with fellow Gators. Would it please you if I started a new topic on the religious section?

[fl_champ]

I understand. While we're on the topic I'll venture a couple of comments, one philosophical, one practical:

(1) I've never gotten the Christian's "hang on 'til heaven" mindset. At the same time, I've never gotten the non-Christian's argument that focusing on the afterlife saps motivation for excelling on this plain of existence. I believe the opposite is the case.

(2) Ironically, I don't see anything about the connection between food and longevity in the Bible. And yes, I do bring it up if a food-obsessed client of mine identifies themselves as a Bible-believer. Otherwise, I don't go preaching.

That's all I'm going to say on the topic.

Dreamliner what is your field of work if you don't mind me asking?

[LeafUF]

Leaf I don't understand the frustration. If that's what you're feeling by my comment. This is after all a discussion forum is it not. Why can't we have a civilized open conversation regarding this topic? I didn't come here to cause trouble but to simply talk with fellow Gators. Would it please you if I started a new topic on the religious section?

Feel free to post whatever you want where you want. If others would like to discuss your post with you they are also free to do so. I dont feel it is relevant to this thread or this forum. If I am wrong and others feel this is on topic and in the right place then they will chime in.

I think you were reaching by placing your statement in this thread about obesity and health concerns. That is all. I dont come here to discuss religion, I come here to talk about health and fitness. I do think there is a place on Gator Country to discuss your topic and there are plenty of posters who will find it a worthwhile discussion. Might be better off in Too Hot though. Just my opinion.

[Dreamliner]

Dreamliner what is your field of work if you don't mind me asking?

Fitness trainer.

[LeafUF]

Fitness trainer.

Not another fitness trainer.

[Dreamliner]

Not another fitness trainer.

Oh, right.

[ATL_Gator]

My thoughts:

First off, I hate the connection between simply having a heart beat and living a happy, fulfilled life.

Obese people tend to have more physical problems. I do not buy that someone who is heavy and as a result dealing with dietary restrictions due to diabetes, has to take a myriad of medications to deal with high blood pressure, cholesterol, and others, not to mention the pills to counteract the side effects of other pills. Plus the possibility of being in constant joint pain, and having to choose to NOT do something because they physically can't do it.

This woman that my wife works with is Type II. She ALWAYS complains that her knees are killing her. A flight of stairs taxes her. She has financial problems anyway, and drives a crap car... but is managing 13 or so prescriptions. Even if they are all covered by her insurance to some level (which I am pretty sure they are not)... she is dropping $130 to $260 a month, on just meds. That money could be MUCH better spent elsewhere.

IMO, I do not buy that more heart beats under heavy restrictions and pain is better than fewer heart beats with a less restrictive lifestyle. ESPECIALLY if you are talking about the end of life... i.e. dying at 85 vs. dying at 90.

SECOND: The one thing that I am curious about.. I tend to agree a bit with Leaf on this part... I think the connection between longevity and "heaviness" is the doctor. I would bet there is a HIGH correlation between obesity and "taking medication"... in order to take medication (especially recurring), you MUST go to your doctor. Where they run tests and monitor how things change with time.

Most of the major illnesses out there are BEST dealt with when they are found early. IF a person is healthy, with no symptoms what so ever.. how often does he/she go to the doctor? Myself, I haven't been in about 2.5 years. When I was on blood pressure meds, I was going every 3-6 months, and having a lot of my "functions" monitored (diabetes, liver, so on and so forth).

[ATL_Gator]

Oh yeah, I forgot the "best" part about that woman's life...

Her kid has some odd disease, and will need an organ transplant. The doctors flat out told her that she can NOT donate to her own kid BECAUSE she is so overweight. The aren't even going to test her for compatibility.

Her obesity is potentially affecting her kid's life (best case for a match is a sibling, second best is a parent).

Maybe she lives longer than I do, but is that a better situation?

[Dreamliner]

My thoughts:

First off, I hate the connection between simply having a heart beat and living a happy, fulfilled life.

Obese people tend to have more physical problems. I do not buy that someone who is heavy and as a result dealing with dietary restrictions due to diabetes, has to take a myriad of medications to deal with high blood pressure, cholesterol, and others, not to mention the pills to counteract the side effects of other pills. Plus the possibility of being in constant joint pain, and having to choose to NOT do something because they physically can't do it.

This woman that my wife works with is Type II. She ALWAYS complains that her knees are killing her. A flight of stairs taxes her. She has financial problems anyway, and drives a crap car... but is managing 13 or so prescriptions. Even if they are all covered by her insurance to some level (which I am pretty sure they are not)... she is dropping $130 to $260 a month, on just meds. That money could be MUCH better spent elsewhere.

IMO, I do not buy that more heart beats under heavy restrictions and pain is better than fewer heart beats with a less restrictive lifestyle. ESPECIALLY if you are talking about the end of life... i.e. dying at 85 vs. dying at 90.

SECOND: The one thing that I am curious about.. I tend to agree a bit with Leaf on this part... I think the connection between longevity and "heaviness" is the doctor. I would bet there is a HIGH correlation between obesity and "taking medication"... in order to take medication (especially recurring), you MUST go to your doctor. Where they run tests and monitor how things change with time.

Most of the major illnesses out there are BEST dealt with when they are found early. IF a person is healthy, with no symptoms what so ever.. how often does he/she go to the doctor? Myself, I haven't been in about 2.5 years. When I was on blood pressure meds, I was going every 3-6 months, and having a lot of my "functions" monitored (diabetes, liver, so on and so forth).

I dealt with some of these on the similar thread on Too Hot. First, on the very narrow score of overweight and moderately obese, they live as long if not longer than their normal weight counterparts, irrespective of health problems. obviously there is a difference between mortality and morbidity.

BUT, we also know that obesity appears to confer some degree of immunity against death by hearth attack, diabetes, hypertension and a number of other conditions and episodes. So, I suppose the question begs, when does a risk began to be seen as a benefit ?

ALSO, there is a difference between so-called 'risks' and actual disease. Very often, there does not appear to be a demonstrable link. But increasing numbers of Americans are diagnosed with the disease of being fat, the medicated for it based on the vogue practice of risk management. Therefore, it is dubious to suppose that fat people are actually less healthy than skinny people.

Lastly, don't get me wrong. I can think of a number of reasons for fat people to lose weight ranging from joint relief to vanity. But as a fitness trainer, I can no longer pretend to imagine that in so doing they will improve their health, let alone extend their lives.

Also, as a fitness trainer, I consider it no small thing to help people regain the vigor of their youth, the strength and mobility they've lost, irrespective of shape and size.

[Dreamliner]

Another problem with the debate is that when we hear (I know I've been guilty about this) "Obesity is not killing us", we go, "WTF ?" because we're thinking of the morbidly obese, who comprise all of 3% of the population and which do die earlier ... just like the underweight.*

But in the VERY broad middle we see tens of scores of millions of Americans that we fitness-minded types would consider fat, but who may well outlive us.

*Although even here I've seen research which has the most morbidly obese of women outliving normal weight males. :jeez:

[ATL_Gator]

Given the links and what not.. I can understand not advertising/pushing the weight loss and life extension link...

But health?

The definition of health:


The state of being free from illness or injury: "he was restored to health"; "a health risk".
A person's mental or physical condition.

A person successfully managing an illness/injury/depression that is directly caused by excess weight (no matter how much) with medication doesn't mean that they are healthy. Longevity does not enter that definition.

[ATL_Gator]

*Although even here I've seen research which has the most morbidly obese of women outliving normal weight males. :jeez:

I thought that women outlive men in general, regardless of weight.

...

Anyway, I have another theory as why overweight may outlive "perfect" weight.

I suspect that the body generally shuts down slowly over time. Eventually, the ability to process calories/nutrients from what we eat becomes compromised, and part of what the body does is turn to fat storage to make up the difference (along with other strategies like shedding muscle that isn't being used).

IF you can buy that, of course a fat person is going to live longer. They have more to pull from.

to illustrate:

2 people, same age, one fat, one not (some fat, but not excess). At the same point in time they contract the same disease that shuts down the digestion/absorption of calories at the same rate. The thin person is going to run out of storage and then die before the fat person.

[Dreamliner]

Given the links and what not.. I can understand not advertising/pushing the weight loss and life extension link...

But health?

The definition of health:


The state of being free from illness or injury: "he was restored to health"; "a health risk".
A person's mental or physical condition.

A person successfully managing an illness/injury/depression that is directly caused by excess weight (no matter how much) with medication doesn't mean that they are healthy. Longevity does not enter that definition.

True, but here's the larger picture: as soon as you label fat a disease, that person is, by definition, unhealthy. So, that right there skews the numbers.

Then, doctors begin to medicate for various risk factors associated with obesity, whether or not said factors actually appear to be killing people. Ex: a former client of mine was technically moderately obese. In his case, in spite of normal health markers, and in spite of the fact that his parents were long-lived, his doctor prescribed statins prophylactically.

Then you have to take into account that thin people have the same conditions ... and appear to die earlier from them than fat people do.

Finally, the moral panic over obesity ignores the fact that Americans are, in point of fact, healthier than ever.

[Dreamliner]

I thought that women outlive men in general, regardless of weight.

...

Anyway, I have another theory as why overweight may outlive "perfect" weight.

I suspect that the body generally shuts down slowly over time. Eventually, the ability to process calories/nutrients from what we eat becomes compromised, and part of what the body does is turn to fat storage to make up the difference (along with other strategies like shedding muscle that isn't being used).

IF you can buy that, of course a fat person is going to live longer. They have more to pull from.

to illustrate:

2 people, same age, one fat, one not (some fat, but not excess). At the same point in time they contract the same disease that shuts down the digestion/absorption of calories at the same rate. The thin person is going to run out of storage and then die before the fat person.

Yes, women do live longer in general. The prevailing theory is that men are more aggressive and tend to engage in riskier endeavors.

And either 1 or 2 are among theories which serve to explain the 'obesity paradox.'

[Dreamliner]

I am 6-0 145 and can probably run rings around most men half my age. But I also take blood pressure meds, asthma meds and suffer from periodic acid reflux.

Would you say that I'm healthy ? Technically, I have three diseases.

Yet, I'll bet that the average person would look at me and think that, based on my age, my slim build and performance has me looking like the picture of health. In fact, people are often astonished when I tell them how old I am.

[LeafUF]

I am 6-0 145 and can probably run rings around most men half my age. But I also take blood pressure meds, asthma meds and suffer from periodic acid reflux.

Would you say that I'm healthy ? Technically, I have three diseases.

Would you rather be overweight, out of shape and not have these ailments? Or, if you were overweight would these problems be worse for you? Thats the thing I wonder about. I mean I have two of those problems myself. I have had asthma since before I was a year old and a few years ago started having high blood pressure. And for a while those problems were much worse for me as I had kind of let myself go a little bit. The blood pressure was probably from a combination of terrible diet, stressful job and very little activity.

My asthma is completely under control now with a once a day med and my bp meds have been cut by 75%. So, did losing about 20 pounds and maybe even more fat improve my health?

[ATL_Gator]

I am 6-0 145 and can probably run rings around most men half my age. But I also take blood pressure meds, asthma meds and suffer from periodic acid reflux.

Would you say that I'm healthy ? Technically, I have three diseases.

Yet, I'll bet that the average person would look at me and think that, based on my age, my slim build and performance has me looking like the picture of health. In fact, people are often astonished when I tell them how old I am.

Black and white, per the definition... nope. Can't beat genetics.

Doesn't sound like any of what you are dealing with is weight related. Along those lines, you could be managing Type 2 Diabetes because you were overweight with all of that stuff.

I would argue that the second condition is "less healthy" than the first.

[Dreamliner]

Would you rather be overweight, out of shape and not have these ailments? Or, if you were overweight would these problems be worse for you? Thats the thing I wonder about. I mean I have two of those problems myself. I have had asthma since before I was a year old and a few years ago started having high blood pressure. And for a while those problems were much worse for me as I had kind of let myself go a little bit. The blood pressure was probably from a combination of terrible diet, stressful job and very little activity.

My asthma is completely under control now with a once a day med and my bp meds have been cut by 75%. So, did losing about 20 pounds and maybe even more fat improve my health?

It's a interesting question. I strongly suspect that being overweight would be worse for my reflux, but possibly better for my hypertension. In the end, I maintain the body I have primarily for reasons of vanity and secondarily for reasons of performance. No way I could perform half the movements I value if I was as little as ten pounds heavier.

Here's another interesting thing: there is no doubt that various health markers improve when we lose weight. Ex: my BP seems extraordinarily sensitive to weight change. But it is less clear that improving numbers actually mean anything in terms of mortality.

I have a neighbor who goes to the same doctor I do. The doctor was so concerned about his weight and cholesterol numbers that he put him on a medically-supervised meal replacement diet.

Guy lost like 75 pounds in a very few months. His cholesterol plummeted. He's very happy. But there is research to suggest that losing all that weight may be more dangerous for him than his high cholesterol numbers ever were.

[Dreamliner]

Black and white, per the definition... nope. Can't beat genetics.

Doesn't sound like any of what you are dealing with is weight related. Along those lines, you could be managing Type 2 Diabetes because you were overweight with all of that stuff.

I would argue that the second condition is "less healthy" than the first.

I can tell you that, even though I was the firstborn of my siblings, I was the runt of the litter. I was a preemie. Spent some time under an oxygen tent when I was a toddler. And my mom tells me that when I was three years old I weighed thirty pounds.

My grandad called me 'spider.'

[LeafUF]

I am completely with you that I exercise and try to stay fit(lean, healthy, whatever you want to call it) for vanity and performance reasons. I want to be able to lift heavy things compared to my BW and I want to look good. Even if those things are counter to my health I would do this and in some cases they are. As I know you are familiar with as well, RSIs, tendonitis and just general aches and pains from certain lifts are pretty common.

Now, I do feel better overall than I did a few years ago when I was out of shape and miserable. Doesnt mean everyone would feel the same, some people probably get sore from a workout and decide that exercise isnt for them.

[Dreamliner]

Even in the face of these shocking, revelatory statistics, in the end ... we're all going to die. Having reckoned with the new information, I'm liable to tell people that if all they want to do is eke out a few more months of living than their neighbor, be chubby. But if they want to look, feel and move better, I can help.

Now, I probably don't need to be that blunt right now. The conventional wisdom is that it's bad to be overweight. I don't expect any of that to change soon. But I want to be more circumspect with regards to claims made for weight loss and exercise. And I'm hoping that there are lots of people out there who will appreciate that sort of honesty.

And due to the withering social pressure to lose weight and be thin, I can actually see people paying me to give them permission not to lose weight. And of course even in those cases there might be ample opportunity to turn my attention to helping them to regain the strength and mobility of their youth. I can tell you that, for myself, I find that as least as gratifying as being lean.

[Dreamliner]

I would further venture that not only is it not the case that obesity is killing us, we are not in fact experiencing an obesity epidemic. The government has established an arbitrary dividing line between overweight and obese - a BMI of 30. If you're under the number, you're merely overweight. If you're over the number you're obese. Sorry. Word of advice: don't go to a doctor until you get your BMI down to 29.5. Yes, he'll nag you. But he may not load you down with drugs.

So, as Americans have gained, on average, around ten pounds since the 'epidemic' began (they've also grown nearly an inch taller), that's shifted tens of millions of Americans to the right of the line. And so researchers look at the adjusted numbers and shriek, "WTF ? Look at all those obese people! Where the F*** did they come from ?!?!"

[Dreamliner]

I can say that these obesity studies have pretty much driven a nail in the coffin of the 'before and after pic' concept. Basically, anyone can lose weight, but almost no one can keep it off long-term. And I am no longer convinced that this is chiefly due to sliding back into old habits. Bodyfat levels are almost certainly genetic. Lose a bunch of it and your body wants it back.

[Dreamliner]

So, to review ...

*The 'Obesity Crisis' amounts to a moral panic manufactured by the people who have a vested interest in their findings as they are supported by Big Pharma and the dieting industry.

*The dangers of obesity have been vastly overstated and the advantages of obesity given short shrift.

*People are being badgered into losing weight, in spite of the near uniform failure in terms of maintained weight-loss, and are likely being set up for future weight gain and quite possibly eating disorders.

Thanks!

[ATL_Gator]

I have seen you talk about "sustained weight loss" in a few posts now...

Can you clarify that. What would you define as sustained.

My peak weight was 265. I have been 210 or below with a significantly leaner (though not "LEAN") body for almost a decade.

Granted I get small fluctuations in weight, I haven't been remotely close to my peak weight in that time frame (future weight gain), and I HIGHLY doubt I suffer from any sort of eating disorder.

[Dreamliner]

I have seen you talk about "sustained weight loss" in a few posts now...

Can you clarify that. What would you define as sustained.

My peak weight was 265. I have been 210 or below with a significantly leaner (though not "LEAN") body for almost a decade.

Granted I get small fluctuations in weight, I haven't been remotely close to my peak weight in that time frame (future weight gain), and I HIGHLY doubt I suffer from any sort of eating disorder.

It may be one of the best-attested facts in literature that people are almost uniformly unable to maintain more than a 5-10% loss in bodyweight for an appreciable length of time.

I personally believe that the 'setpoint theory' may be true. That is, your body knows the weight it wants to be and will eventually 'defend' that weight when more than 10-15 pounds is lost. It 'gets the weight back' by means of ramping up hunger and ramping down satiety.

THAT SAID - and this may go to your question - it doesn't appear that disordered eaters have any idea what tneir setpoint is until they reach the point where they're eating intuitively and thereby give their body the opportunity to 'find it's weight.'

Some people, I'm sure, are under-eating. And I'm equally confident that others are overeating.

Ex: a recent client of mine was an acknowledged stress-eater. As soon as he got a handle on that he: (1) likely stemmed future weight gain and (2) lost about fifteen pounds and settled in there. In his case, he lost weight more or less accidentally. Others are likely to gain some weight at which point they let go and give themselves permission to savor the foods they enjoy, eating when hungry and stopping when satisfied.

I myself no longer invite people to lose weight or gain weight.

[ATL_Gator]

It may be one of the best-attested facts in literature that people are almost uniformly unable to maintain more than a 5-10% loss in bodyweight for an appreciable length of time.

I personally believe that the 'setpoint theory' may be true. That is, your body knows the weight it wants to be and will eventually 'defend' that weight when more than 10-15 pounds is lost. It 'gets the weight back' by means of ramping up hunger and ramping down satiety.

THAT SAID - and this may go to your question - it doesn't appear that disordered eaters have any idea what tneir setpoint is until they reach the point where they're eating intuitively and thereby give their body the opportunity to 'find it's weight.'

Some people, I'm sure, are under-eating. And I'm equally confident that others are overeating.

Ex: a recent client of mine was an acknowledged stress-eater. As soon as he got a handle on that he: (1) likely stemmed future weight gain and (2) lost about fifteen pounds and settled in there. In his case, he lost weight more or less accidentally. Others are likely to gain some weight at which point they let go and give themselves permission to savor the foods they enjoy, eating when hungry and stopping when satisfied.

I myself no longer invite people to lose weight or gain weight.

Unable to maintain weight loss/gain. Eating disorder. And what I can imagine "set point theory" is...

In my opinion... 98% mental inability, 2% physical inability.

I recognized that there exists REAL physical limitations.

That said, there is a reason a person's day may go like this:
Breakfast: 2x toaster waffle with syrup and butter, glass of OJ
9-10 AM: Bagel with cream cheese, coffee with easily 10% of the cup volume sugar, 10% cup volume half/half
Lunch: Wendy's dollar menu: 2x jr bacon cheeseburger, fries, frosty
Afternoon: Snickers with a 20oz coke.
Dinner: A couple of slices of pizza and a coke.
Snack: Ice Cream

Either:
MENTALLY INEPT to realize that the calories ingested FAR EXCEEDS what is needed to sustain 200 lb, far exceeds what is needed to sustain a current weight of 260 lb, and is probably what is required for 325 lb.

OR

Realizes all the above, and either chooses to not care (mental) or does it because he knows that he can try to change the habits but just fall back into them after a few weeks (not mentally strong enough).

....

I wish I could tell you that I made up that scenario... but, that was me, a long time ago.

[Dreamliner]

Hey, maybe you're just a healthy, growing boy. :wink:

More and more I'm beginning to think that willpower ought to be taken off the table altogether. Clearly it has failed abysmally to turn fat people into thin people and keep them that way.

But unless I've misunderstood, if that's indicative of how you eat every day, why aren't you now north of 265 ?

[ATL_Gator]

That's how I used to eat everyday, when at UF, as my weight continually increased. Being in the Mechanical Engineering building across from the Reitz Union was just too convenient for getting food when hungry, and I lacked the mental fortitude to say "No".

Beyond that, I remember a time period of increased stupidity where I understood the problem, and it's source.. but still couldn't resist the temptation.

[Dreamliner]

Offhand, I'm guessing that anybody who's settled into a weight-range they can maintain it year after year, without white-knuckling it, has probably found their proper weight.

That's why I'm guessing I've found my weight-range, which happens to be skinny. In a way, I can empathize with the unhappiness with fat as I've struggled with the unhappiness of little muscle. I've had to come to terms with my basic shape like everybody else does.

Aside: there is reason to believe that the body can and will adjust it's setpoint UPWARDS, in response to dieting, almost as if it's saying, "I'll teach you to starve me again!"

[Dreamliner]

Ever wonder where Jared the Subway guy went ? He fell off the wagon:

http://www.thatsfit.com/2009/12/02/subway-guy-falls-off-the-diet-wagon/

Well, d'uh.

[ATL_Gator]

.

Aside: there is reason to believe that the body can and will adjust it's setpoint UPWARDS, in response to dieting, almost as if it's saying, "I'll teach you to starve me again!"

Hmm.. you know what that sounds like? Starvation mode! So you buy into that now?

[Dreamliner]

Hmm.. you know what that sounds like? Starvation mode! So you buy into that now?

No, not in the sense that your metabolism 'grinds to a standstill' as the nutritionists like to fret. I'm guessing the reason for the confusion is because REE decreases to the point where the calorie deficit is washed out.

That said, I suspect it is accurate to say that the body perceives dieting as starvation (in a sense, dieting is programmed starvation).

For one thing, we know that when you lose significant amounts of weight the metabolism slows for reasons other than decreased activity and less body-mass. It appears to be a survival mechanism.

More insidiously for the dieter, when you lose a significant amount of weight ... your body wants it back. It will increase hunger and decrease satiety to get the weight back. And it will even increase baseline weight to safeguard against future starvation.

So, I no longer believe that dieters gain their weight back simply because they 'slide back into old habits' or 'take their eyes off the ball.' I think it has more to do with the body's biological safeguards. I cannot blame them for gaining their weight back. I can only blame them now if they keep dieting hoping for a happier result.

My neighbor who lost 75 pounds on his quack, er, doctor-directed Opti-Fast diet ? He's already gained back 15 in a matter of weeks. Evidently, his body prefers real food. Go figure.

[ATL_Gator]

So you are telling me that I will be 265+ again at some point in my life, and moreso that my body desires to be 265?

Sounds like the same mularky that the body mysteriously alters itself to deal with impending starvation.

I can tell you that every time I even put on 10 lb, I can directly attest it to absolute un-abated eating, and eating more calories than I know I need to sustain my weight. And that eating is a mental choice to do so, not a physical one.

[LeafUF]

So, I no longer believe that dieters gain their weight back simply because they 'slide back into old habits' or 'take their eyes off the ball.' I think it has more to do with the body's biological safeguards. I cannot blame them for gaining their weight back. I can only blame them now if they keep dieting hoping for a happier result.

My neighbor who lost 75 pounds on his quack, er, doctor-directed Opti-Fast diet ? He's already gained back 15 in a matter of weeks. Evidently, his body prefers real food. Go figure.

I dont buy your setpoint weight argument however I think there is something in this last part worth discussing. Part of it may be taking their eyes off the ball or falling back into old habits. And another thing may be that extreme dieting like so many embark on to lose their weight is actually causing their metabolism to drop significantly more than their weight loss alone would explain. This is what they have found with many of the biggest loser contestants who have gone on to gain back their weight. So, I do think how the weight is lost may give us a better idea as to why so many gain weight after successful weight loss.

[LeafUF]

So you are telling me that I will be 265+ again at some point in my life, and moreso that my body desires to be 265?

Sounds like the same mularky that the body mysteriously alters itself to deal with impending starvation.

I can tell you that every time I even put on 10 lb, I can directly attest it to absolute un-abated eating, and eating more calories than I know I need to sustain my weight. And that eating is a mental choice to do so, not a physical one.

ATL, when you dropped the majority of your weight what did you do to get there and how long did it take you? I am really wondering if the reason so many yoyo is that they choose to take an extreme approach to weight loss which inevitably leads to gaining some, all or even more weight back.

[Dreamliner]

So you are telling me that I will be 265+ again at some point in my life, and moreso that my body desires to be 265?

Sounds like the same mularky that the body mysteriously alters itself to deal with impending starvation.

I can tell you that every time I even put on 10 lb, I can directly attest it to absolute un-abated eating, and eating more calories than I know I need to sustain my weight. And that eating is a mental choice to do so, not a physical one.

I thought you were telling me that you were obviously overeating at 265 ? I've bounced around between 140-145 for years now. I can easily envision gaining to 160. But I'd have to strain to do it. I'd have to overeat.

Whatever the case, we know that the vast majority of dieters gain their weight back. BUT, I'm certainly not telling you that you should try to gain all your lost weight back. I'm not telling you that you should try to gain any weight back. Just see how it goes. Maybe you'll be one of the fortunate ones who can maintain lost weight without white-knuckling it.

For me, that last bit is key. In my view, it's hardly worth the effort if it's always going to be an effort.

[ATL_Gator]

50-55 lb of it took about a year, maybe a little more.

From what I recall, the first 10 dropped REAL fast. 40+ came off at a rate about 1 lb per week. Factor in a couple of plateaus and some holiday "set backs" (minor, relatively speaking) and that is about a years worth.

My wife has followed the same method, dropped 50 in about 45 weeks.

It took me maybe 30 weeks or so to go from 210 to 185 last year. I am now up to anywhere from 190 to 195. Every now and again I can tip the scale at 188, but I really eat too large of a dinner to sustain that.

For example, tonight's dinner was 4 soft tacos and 3 hard tacos (taco kit made at home) with sour cream, cheddar cheese and refried beans on all of them. Again, that was a decision to get up and make the rest instead of keeping some for left-overs tomorrow. It wasn't that I was hungry at all... I simply wanted to continue to taste them.

[ATL_Gator]

I was over-eating at 265. It was slow, but I was consistently gaining weight.

[Dreamliner]

I dont buy your setpoint weight argument however I think there is something in this last part worth discussing. Part of it may be taking their eyes off the ball or falling back into old habits. And another thing may be that extreme dieting like so many embark on to lose their weight is actually causing their metabolism to drop significantly more than their weight loss alone would explain. This is what they have found with many of the biggest loser contestants who have gone on to gain back their weight. So, I do think how the weight is lost may give us a better idea as to why so many gain weight after successful weight loss.

Remember that setpoint isn't my theory. I believe it was first propounded by Friedman, the guy who discovered leptin, and I believe it, or something like it, best fits the weight-rebound phenomenon.

I just think it's to easy to imagine that everybody just goes off the rails due to flagging willpower. I believe that willpower is neither here nor there. I strongly suspect that our bodies know better than we, our fitness trainers, our nutritionists, our doctors and the government where it wants to be.

And it does not appear to matter how precipitously weight is lost. Rather, it appears to do with *how much* weight is lost.

Remember too that it is not a case of 'so many' regaining weight. Based on the studies, it's closer to 'nearly everyone' than to 'so many.'

Finally, I used to react almost violently to the very argument I'm advancing now. I'd point to the National Weight Control Registry and cite its thousands of members who've lost thirty pounds or more and kept it off for a year or more.

But I no longer find this impressive. And the when you delve into the methods various members employ to maintain that modest success, a sobering picture emerges: members typically attest they think about food all the time. They have to be vigilant every day. They continue to count calories even after a year. They continue to be stringent with respect to food choices. And they tend to get prodigious amounts of exercise.

[Dreamliner]

WHAT I AM NOT SAYING: I am not saying that people can't lose weight. I am more than happy to believe that most fat people binge eat, and that if they learn to eat normally - and if they add movement to the mix - people like that will almost certainly lose weight ACCIDENTALLY.

I just believe that dieting is working from the wrong end of the stick and only serves to play into the problem. Our efforts to turn fat people into thin people has been a spectacular failure. And I myself am chastened to have been a part of it.

[ATL_Gator]

Remember that setpoint isn't my theory. I believe it was first propounded by Friedman, the guy who discovered leptin, and I believe it, or something like it, best fits the weight-rebound phenomenon.

I just think it's to easy to imagine that everybody just goes off the rails due to flagging willpower. I believe that willpower is neither here nor there. I strongly suspect that our bodies know better than we, our fitness trainers, our nutritionists, our doctors and the government where it wants to be.

And it does not appear to matter how precipitously weight is lost. Rather, it appears to do with *how much* weight is lost.

Remember too that it is not a case of 'so many' regaining weight. Based on the studies, it's closer to 'nearly everyone' than to 'so many.'

Finally, I used to react almost violently to the very argument I'm advancing now. I'd point to the National Weight Control Registry and cite its thousands of members who've lost thirty pounds or more and kept it off for a year or more.

But I no longer find this impressive. And the when you delve into the methods various members employ to maintain that modest success, a sobering picture emerges: members typically attest they think about food all the time. They have to be vigilant every day. They continue to count calories even after a year. They continue to be stringent with respect to food choices. And they tend to get prodigious amounts of exercise.

Because someone makes the decision to be stringent with food choices doesn't mean that the body is physically needing the item.

I want a dozen krispy kreme donuts (glazed, hot, fresh). Could eat a dozen every Friday. I decide NOT to indulge in 12 of them a week because the calories is not worth it.

I highly doubt there is a SINGLE thing in those donuts that I physically need to survive. In fact, I bet there is absolutely nothing redeeming about them.

[ATL_Gator]

WHAT I AM NOT SAYING: I am not saying that people can't lose weight. I am more than happy to believe that most fat people binge eat, and that if they learn to eat normally - and if they add movement to the mix - people like that will almost certainly lose weight ACCIDENTALLY.

I just believe that dieting is working from the wrong end of the stick and only serves to play into the problem. Our efforts to turn fat people into thin people has been a spectacular failure. And I myself am chastened to have been a part of it.

I would argue that someone intentionally choosing to eat normally most days of the month instead of binge eating most days of the month doesn't lose anything accidentally.

[Dreamliner]

Because someone makes the decision to be stringent with food choices doesn't mean that the body is physically needing the item.

I want a dozen krispy kreme donuts (glazed, hot, fresh). Could eat a dozen every Friday. I decide NOT to indulge in 12 of them a week because the calories is not worth it.

I highly doubt there is a SINGLE thing in those donuts that I physically need to survive. In fact, I bet there is absolutely nothing redeeming about them.

I suspect you're answering your own questions. Cravings are your body. It's not something you invented. Go with the flow. Best way to deal with cravings: indulge them.

It is not being especially stringent to savor a donut or two, not twelve, and leave the store feeling like a human being.

No, no one needs donuts to survive. But you can damn well be sure that Paleolithic dudes would have eaten them were they available in their time. They're goddamned yummy. And I'd be the first to argue that we have an innate taste for sweets. We have taste buds and they are fearfully and wonderfully made.

[Dreamliner]

I would argue that someone intentionally choosing to eat normally most days of the month instead of binge eating most days of the month doesn't lose anything accidentally.

I'm saying that weight loss shouldn't be the goal. No use setting people up for disappoint if eating more intuitively does NOT result in weight loss.

[LeafUF]

Is it really so unacceptable to watch what one eats to maintain weight loss? I mean people can make better choices and continue to be vigilant without being extreme. You make it sound like people who maintain their weight loss are only doing so out of an unhealthy overwhelming obsession with every morsel of food. It doesn't seem to be the case in Atls experience.

[ATL_Gator]

I suspect you're answering your own questions. Cravings are your body. It's not something you invented. Go with the flow. Best way to deal with cravings: indulge them.

It is not being especially stringent to savor a donut or two, not twelve, and leave the store feeling like a human being.

No, no one needs donuts to survive. But you can damn well be sure that Paleolithic dudes would have eaten them were they available in their time. They're goddamned yummy. And I'd be the first to argue that we have an innate taste for sweets. We have taste buds and they are fearfully and wonderfully made.

I disagree.

I think cravings are my memories of the deliciousness and me wanting to experience it again... and again... and again... and again... and again... repeat... until I feel pain, or run out of product, or go beyond a cost threshold.

And I do indulge when I have a craving. One or two never hurt anyone. :)

[Dreamliner]

Is it really so unacceptable to watch what one eats to maintain weight loss? I mean people can make better choices and continue to be vigilant without being extreme. You make it sound like people who maintain their weight loss are only doing so out of an unhealthy overwhelming obsession with every morsel of food. It doesn't seem to be the case in Atls experience.

Why should anyone have to 'watch what they eat' ? Why shouldn't people eat whatever the hell foods they want, including donuts ? Who invented the rule that we have to 'make better choices' and be 'vigilant' ?

[Dreamliner]

I disagree.

I think cravings are my memories of the deliciousness and me wanting to experience it again... and again... and again... and again... and again... repeat... until I feel pain, or run out of product, or go beyond a cost threshold.

And I do indulge when I have a craving. One or two never hurt anyone. :)

I know. You're the guy who said the eigth slice of pizza tasted as good as the first. Maybe you're just a freak of nature.

[ATL_Gator]

Why should anyone have to 'watch what they eat' ? Why shouldn't people eat whatever the hell foods they want, including donuts ? Who invented the rule that we have to 'make better choices' and be 'vigilant' ?

They should choose to eat what ever foods they want.. but choosing to eat too much and gaining weight as a result shouldn't be a surprise.

[ATL_Gator]

I know. You're the guy who said the eigth slice of pizza tasted as good as the first. Maybe you're just a freak of nature.

Yes, the 8th is just as delicious as the first.

I do not deny the possibility that I am off. Most of the time, I am quite certain of it.

[LeafUF]

Why should anyone have to 'watch what they eat' ? Why shouldn't people eat whatever the hell foods they want, including donuts ? Who invented the rule that we have to 'make better choices' and be 'vigilant' ?

Did I say people can't eat what they want? I think people should eat donuts and cookies even. But I don't have a problem with people watching how many they eat and how often. I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Because its starting to sound like you are in the business of simply keeping people the way they are. Do you tell your clients to just do what they are doing and make no changes?

[Dreamliner]

They should choose to eat what ever foods they want.. but choosing to eat too much and gaining weight as a result shouldn't be a surprise.

... which is entirely consistent with what I've been saying all along. Apparently, you're doing a bang-up job learning to eat to satiety as opposed to stopping when it starts coming through your nostrils. I know you liked the eighth slice of pizza, but even you had to draw the line there. :wink:

[ATL_Gator]

... which is entirely consistent with what I've been saying all along. Apparently, you're doing a bang-up job learning to eat to satiety as opposed to stopping when it starts coming through your nostrils. I know you liked the eighth slice of pizza, but even you had to draw the line there. :wink:

yeah, that line was drawn just because the pizza box was empty. :) Physical restraint.

LOL.

Ok, I need to go to bed. 4:30 AM sucks. Going to need some extra coffee.

[Dreamliner]

Did I say people can't eat what they want? I think people should eat donuts and cookies even. But I don't have a problem with people watching how many they eat and how often. I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Because its starting to sound like you are in the business of simply keeping people the way they are. Do you tell your clients to just do what they are doing and make no changes?

And like I just told ATL, this is entirely consistent with what I'm saying. To summarize:

weight-loss maintenance stats are ABYSMAL. So, rather than jumping to the conclusion that everybody just sucks, or the naive assumption that they just didn't choose the right diet, rather than inviting people to lose weight, maybe fitness trainers should concentrate on fitness and inviting people to eat when hungry and stop when satisfied.

Anticipated result: happier, healthier clients who won't be even heavier five years from now because of the diets we put them on.

Look, I'm trying to save our clients from the therapists, which is where they're going more and more. For all the harm the fitness and diet industry has done, the therapeutic model has probably been even more ruinous.

Let's be the people who invite people of all shapes and sizes to love the bodies they have, enjoy the food they eat and also help them to recapture lost vigor.

[LeafUF]

And like I just told ATL, this is entirely consistent with what I'm saying. To summarize:

weight-loss maintenance stats are ABYSMAL. So, rather than jumping to the conclusion that everybody just sucks, or the naive assumption that they just didn't choose the right diet, rather than inviting people to lose weight, maybe fitness trainers should concentrate on fitness and inviting people to eat when hungry and stop when satisfied.

Anticipated result: happier, healthier clients who won't be even heavier five years from now because of the diets we put them on.

Look, I'm trying to save our clients from the therapists, which is where they're going more and more. For all the harm the fitness and diet industry has done, the therapeutic model has probably been even more ruinous.

Let's be the people who invite people of all shapes and sizes to love the bodies they have, enjoy the food they eat and also help them to recapture lost vigor.

I guess maybe I am a little naive then because I do think that people can reach their goals and maintain them with the right plan. I also happen to think if people are happy with how they look, feel and move they wont be coming to see us anyway. So, I am not going to start off a journey with a client by telling them that they shouldn't have the goal of weight loss if that is indeed what they want. I will help them turn those goals into something reasonable and attainable and I will try to educate them on other factors that I think are more important than a scale number, finding an exercise program and dieting style that is enjoyable and sustainable first and foremost. In fact, when I meet with my clients now I always ask if they are enjoying their food.

[Dreamliner]

I guess maybe I am a little naive then because I do think that people can reach their goals and maintain them with the right plan. I also happen to think if people are happy with how they look, feel and move they wont be coming to see us anyway. So, I am not going to start off a journey with a client by telling them that they shouldn't have the goal of weight loss if that is indeed what they want. I will help them turn those goals into something reasonable and attainable and I will try to educate them on other factors that I think are more important than a scale number, finding an exercise program and dieting style that is enjoyable and sustainable first and foremost. In fact, when I meet with my clients now I always ask if they are enjoying their food.

Of course people can reach their weight-loss goals *short-term.* People do that all the time. They don't even need a fitness trainer to do that. But again, of what use is short-term weight-loss ? Maybe we can hit up the people who just want to lose weight for their highschool reunion ?

Why aren't we asking why people aren't happy with the way they look ? And why are we playing into the by now obvious myth that "thinner = happier" ?

Helping people to lose weight is an excellent way to ensure that they get heavier (and probably less healthy). Physicians have to take an oath that enjoins them to "do no harm." Maybe we fitness trainers need to take a similar oath.

[fbgator27]

Of course people can reach their weight-loss goals *short-term.* People do that all the time. They don't even need a fitness trainer to do that. But again, of what use is short-term weight-loss ? Maybe we can hit up the people who just want to lose weight for their highschool reunion ?

Why aren't we asking why people aren't happy with the way they look ? And why are we playing into the by now obvious myth that "thinner = happier" ?

Helping people to lose weight is an excellent way to ensure that they get heavier (and probably less healthy). Physicians have to take an oath that enjoins them to "do no harm." Maybe we fitness trainers need to take a similar oath.

You say thinner is happier is a myth. For some individuals it may be true. In fact reading some of the three of you go back and forth it sounds like it is one of the driving forces in your quest to staying fit. It seems we are trying to fit everyone into a nice big group, and telling them one philosophy will save us all. We should not be so quick to hear someone say I want to lose weight and to tell them they are wrong for wanting that before we know why.

Maybe we should spend more time listening to our clients and less trying to regurgitate someone's opinion on a piece of research. You have to be careful about reading someone's take on a research article and claim it the next truism. There is a lot of bad info going around in all industries of health care and fitness.

For instance. If you read the study that is referenced in the op the data actually says overweight persons have a lower mortality not obese people. Obese BMIs have a 1.21/1 ratio of mortality compared Bmi under 25. If you look at slightly obese people only, the numbers are virtually the same as normal weight not lower. Really the only thing you can take from the results is BMI is not really a good measure of mortality. That is not the same as saying obesity causes us to live longer. Just says we havent done a good job of quantifying obesity.

[Dreamliner]

You say thinner is happier is a myth. For some individuals it may be true. In fact reading some of the three of you go back and forth it sounds like it is one of the driving forces in your quest to staying fit. It seems we are trying to fit everyone into a nice big group, and telling them one philosophy will save us all. We should not be so quick to hear someone say I want to lose weight and to tell them they are wrong for wanting that before we know why.

Maybe we should spend more time listening to our clients and less trying to regurgitate someone's opinion on a piece of research. You have to be careful about reading someone's take on a research article and claim it the next truism. There is a lot of bad info going around in all industries of health care and fitness.

For instance. If you read the study that is referenced in the op the data actually says overweight persons have a lower mortality not obese people. Obese BMIs have a 1.21/1 ratio of mortality compared Bmi under 25. If you look at slightly obese people only, the numbers are virtually the same as normal weight not lower. Really the only thing you can take from the results is BMI is not really a good measure of mortality. That is not the same as saying obesity causes us to live longer. Just says we havent done a good job of quantifying obesity.

You are at liberty to help people lose weight because they think it will make them happier (be prepared to watch them gain it back). I'm a libertarian. I believe people should be able to commit suicide if that's what they really want to do. That doesn't mean I'm volunteering to shoot them though.

The studies may be parsed to show that the lower portion of the obese category is the very longest-lived. They may also be parsed to show that the lower half of normal weight die sooner, particularly those who exercise! Additionally, whereas I'm aware of no study that shows weight loss enhancing longevity, their is evidence that weight loss may shorten life.

Additionally, study after study suggests that obesity does indeed confer some protection. This is what has researchers scratching their heads over the 'Obesity Paradox' in the first place.

In any case, there is no 'obesity crisis.' But we do know that there is an unrelenting social pressure to be thin. You can aid and abet that and I'll watch. And this is coming from a thin person.

[fbgator27]

Actually, I am trying to say quite the opposite. I am saying you should not be so dogmatic about the weight issue. People set goals for different reasons. It is your job to listen to the client and work with them to figure out what the reasons for losing weight are. Don't just tell them wanting to lose weight is the root of all social evil. You should educate them and direct them on the best strategy for achieving their goal. This may or may not involve weight loss.

The article is a meta analysis of all BMI to mortality studies performed around the world. So its pretty inclusive of what you are saying about obesity. Now, of course the evidence can be biased by the researchers, but I was simply referencing the article because you did. They said low level BMI obesity didn't lower or raise mortality but being OVERWEIGHT lowered mortality. Again these types of study basically summarize the results of every BMI-mortality study ever done. My point is not that we should encourage people to lose weight to live longer. I am saying we are arguing with the wrong tools. Our measure of obesity is not valid to determine mortality, but we shouldn't accept that as our final answer on the subject.

[Dreamliner]

Actually, I am trying to say quite the opposite. I am saying you should not be so dogmatic about the weight issue. People set goals for different reasons. It is your job to listen to the client and work with them to figure out what the reasons for losing weight are. Don't just tell them wanting to lose weight is the root of all social evil. You should educate them and direct them on the best strategy for achieving their goal. This may or may not involve weight loss.

The article is a meta analysis of all BMI to mortality studies performed around the world. So its pretty inclusive of what you are saying about obesity. Now, of course the evidence can be biased by the researchers, but I was simply referencing the article because you did. They said low level BMI obesity didn't lower or raise mortality but being OVERWEIGHT lowered mortality. Again these types of study basically summarize the results of every BMI-mortality study ever done. My point is not that we should encourage people to lose weight to live longer. I am saying we are arguing with the wrong tools. Our measure of obesity is not valid to determine mortality, but we shouldn't accept that as our final answer on the subject.

I knew that's what you were saying, in effect, how dare I insinuate that people might have other than entirely sensible reasons to lose weight.

But I disagree that "it is my job" to comply with any goals my clients might wish to pursue. If your clients wished to start smoking, would you be obliged to help them get started ?

And you're misreading the studies. Overweight live longer than normal weight. Grade I obese and normal weight no difference (and the Canadian study shows Grade 1 and Grade II no difference). Only the underweight and the fattest of the fat die sooner.

Now, if you want to quibble about BMI as a diagnostic, I think it's silly myself. But obesity researchers can't have it both ways. They can't use BMI to tell us that we're getting fatter, and then when they find that the fatter we get, the longer we live, then turn on their primary diagnostic.

Truthfully, the fattest of the fat are getting heavier, but there is very little change in weight for the rest. But the relentless quest to lose weight continues unabated, even though it doesn't work. So, why am I duty-bound to help my clients do something they cannot do ?

[fbgator27]

.
And you're misreading the studies. Overweight live longer than normal weight. Grade I obese and normal weight no difference (and the Canadian study shows Grade 1 and Grade II no difference). Only the underweight and the fattest of the fat die sooner.


Actually this is exactly what I said in my post just worded differently.


I was pointing out that you said in your original argument that obesity was helping people to live longer. When in fact the studies say there was no difference in normal weight and "slightly obese".

Yes, you can embellish my point on helping someone obtain their goals. Obviously, most of us on here who care enough to have a discussion about this are trying to help people in positive ways. You're not obligated to help any one you don't want to, and I have turned away people and told them I can't help. But any time someone tells me something is an absolute I will question it. It doesn't matter if you tell me the cure to all my ills is losing weight or that losing weight doesn't work in any situation. I see that as a huge problem in the fitness industry. People like to work in absolutes. You can take either side of the argument but it does no good for the individual in front of you to be close minded.

[Dreamliner]

Actually this is exactly what I said in my post just worded differently.


I was pointing out that you said in your original argument that obesity was helping people to live longer. When in fact the studies say there was no difference in normal weight and "slightly obese".

Yes, you can embellish my point on helping someone obtain their goals. Obviously, most of us on here who care enough to have a discussion about this are trying to help people in positive ways. You're not obligated to help any one you don't want to, and I have turned away people and told them I can't help. But any time someone tells me something is an absolute I will question it. It doesn't matter if you tell me the cure to all my ills is losing weight or that losing weight doesn't work in any situation. I see that as a huge problem in the fitness industry. People like to work in absolutes. You can take either side of the argument but it does no good for the individual in front of you to be close minded.

All of which would be germaine if I were close-minded. But I am only close-minded if, by the term, you mean someone who is now unwilling to help someone go on a weight-loss diet.

Other professionals are of course free to do that if they wish. But I'd like to see them get a signed waiver in the future. Prior to my sinus surgery I was required to sign a waiver acknowledging a slight risk of failure and a very slight risk of blindness.

A weight-loss waiver might incorporate extremely high probability of recidivism, high probably that the client will eventually wind up heavier than ever, and possible risks of hypertension, diabetes, eating disorders and increased mortality, etc. Certainly we harp on risks related to exercise, why not weight-loss ?

For professionals who are willing to put their clients on a diet, this could be used as an educational tool as well.

[fbgator27]

I am mostly talking about the industry in general with my last rant. People are so quick to subscribe to the latest and greatest until it is all of the sudden demonized. As a society move en masse towards these "studies" and don't take time to analyze what they are actually saying. Close minded in the fact that you can't read one article based on measures that we both agree don't mean anything and call it fact. It does no good for us to look at it so black and white and not continue to question.

Sure people can relapse and it is a great idea to give informed consent to your clients on everything you do. Its only professional. Sure there are risks; thats why they come to a professional. To limit risk factors.

[Dreamliner]

I am mostly talking about the industry in general with my last rant. People are so quick to subscribe to the latest and greatest until it is all of the sudden demonized. As a society move en masse towards these "studies" and don't take time to analyze what they are actually saying. Close minded in the fact that you can't read one article based on measures that we both agree don't mean anything and call it fact. It does no good for us to look at it so black and white and not continue to question.

Sure people can relapse and it is a great idea to give informed consent to your clients on everything you do. Its only professional. Sure there are risks; thats why they come to a professional. To limit risk factors.

I'm not entirely clear anymore on whether we have a basis for disagreement. We seem to agree that BMI-based studies should be viewed advisably. We seem to agree that 'obesity is killing us' is to be taken advisably. And we seem to agree that we, as helping professionals, are not, nonetheless, obliged to enable every goal.

[fbgator27]

I think we do agree philosophically. What compelled me to post was my view that we tend to sensationalize every piece of research that is reported on face value. Really we can summarize data to sound good for either side of the argument. True, research is more accessible than ever. With that we rely on others to interpret it for us which can be misleading.

[Dreamliner]

I think we do agree philosophically. What compelled me to post was my view that we tend to sensationalize every piece of research that is reported on face value. Really we can summarize data to sound good for either side of the argument. True, research is more accessible than ever. With that we rely on others to interpret it for us which can be misleading.

I understand what you're saying. Although I'm inclined to believe that these particular studies should serve as a shovel to the head of anyone who's contributing to what I've come to regard as a manufactured moral panic. I do believe the research goes well beyond "you can use them to say that obesity is okay or you can use them to say that obesity is bad."

[Dreamliner]

Continuing my stream of thought, it is my growing conviction that adiposity is largely heritable and therefore it is cruel to engender hopes in our clients that they can change their shape, to any significant degree, *long-term.*

It's a going joke that the notion that people are obese, due to lack of willpower, is a theory held predominantly by lean people.

But lean people might be more sympathetic, to the lot of obese people, were they to reflect on the fact that it is probably at least as hard for them to maintain appreciable weight-gain as it is for the obese person to maintain appreciable weight-loss.

Take me, for example. I'm currently about 6-0 145. My bodyweight has not varied more than 3-5 pounds, absent intervention, for years. Owing to pressures to get bigger and more muscular, I have experimented, over the years, with force-feeding.

I've found that I can increase bodyweight by 5-10 pounds, fairly easily, through force-feeding. Never mind, for the moment, that it all seems to go around my waist. Beyond those relatively few pounds, my appetite begins to shut down and I literally become sick of food.

On the other end, I can also lose 3-5 pounds, in relatively short order, by eating less and moving more. Much beyond that and, yep, I become ravenously hungry and literally think about food all the time.

Ironically, at that point, my body is behaving precisely like that of an obese person. The obese person exhibits the attributes of a starving person!

[patience75]

Vitals: I am 37 just under 6'3" and I weigh 330lbs. 6 months ago at my annual check up my cholesterol (sp?) was 164. BP was 114/72. My Dr said I have the bloodwork of a 20 year old. With that being said I hate being overweight. My wife is 5'4" about 125 and runs half marathons. Needless to say she hates me being overweight and hates it even more when I tell her I am a medical marvel. I have lost 60lbs+ twice over the last 2 years and both times put it back on. Even though my bloodwork looks good I am concerned about my health. I am currently on the diet plan again and mainly because I want to be active with my kids and I don't want my legs, back, and feet hurt everytime I want to do something. Even at this weight I can run 2 miles, rather slow though. I don't like being winded anytime I walk stairs or do anything with the kids.

Being a former Marine I get a lot of jabs from people for once being a physical specimen to now being a disgusting fat body.

[Dreamliner]

Vitals: I am 37 just under 6'3" and I weigh 330lbs. 6 months ago at my annual check up my cholesterol (sp?) was 164. BP was 114/72. My Dr said I have the bloodwork of a 20 year old. With that being said I hate being overweight. My wife is 5'4" about 125 and runs half marathons. Needless to say she hates me being overweight and hates it even more when I tell her I am a medical marvel. I have lost 60lbs+ twice over the last 2 years and both times put it back on. Even though my bloodwork looks good I am concerned about my health. I am currently on the diet plan again and mainly because I want to be active with my kids and I don't want my legs, back, and feet hurt everytime I want to do something. Even at this weight I can run 2 miles, rather slow though. I don't like being winded anytime I walk stairs or do anything with the kids.

Being a former Marine I get a lot of jabs from people for once being a physical specimen to now being a disgusting fat body.

Kudos for aiming to be more active. Regardless the effect on bodyweight, almost everyone can and probably should move more than they do. And since you're not crazy about being winded (not many are), do you also incorporate some walking ?

Bear in mind that walking burns almost as many calories as jogging, and most people can handle a lot more walking than jogging. For one thing, it is almost certainly easier on the joints. And of course you could swim as well. I can swim fine myself. But skinny as I am I have virtually no buoyancy. I sink like a rock. This should be no problem for you.

Also, since you say your bloodwork is good, but that you're concerned about your health, are both parents still living ? And if so, how is there health ? In other words, since your weight doesn't appear to have dragged down your health markers, is there anything you've observed in your parents that would cause you to be concerned about your own health ?

[patience75]

Both parents are 58 and no health issues. One grandmother is 79 and one is 82. One I perfectly fine the other is on heart meds but fine... My grandfather had a stroke and died at 82... I do a walk/jog combo... Just trying to at less more regularly...

[Dreamliner]

Both parents are 58 and no health issues. One grandmother is 79 and one is 82. One I perfectly fine the other is on heart meds but fine... My grandfather had a stroke and died at 82... I do a walk/jog combo... Just trying to at less more regularly...

Sounds like you've got pretty good prospects ahead of you irrespective of your weight. And the fact you've lost a bunch of weight, and gained it back both times, simply serves to underscore what I'm talking about. I doubt that it's because you "lost weight in the wrong way."

Some would call this giving up. I call it wising up.

Eat mindfully, but don't deprive yourself. Stay active. You might lose a smaller amount of weight and hold, but you might not. In any case, don't beat yourself up. If you beat yourself up about your weight, THAT might effect your health.

[Dreamliner]

I'm in LA right now, and although people out here are markedly more fashion conscious than in, say, Orlando, people out here are not markedly different in terms of shapes and sizes.

Just thought it was interesting.

BTW, LA is STILL gaga over Pilates. Seems like there's a Pilates studio on every block.

[MeyerIsBack]

This may have been mentioned but I think we are living longer despite of being fatter. Also, quality of life is a related and important discussion.

[Dreamliner]

This may have been mentioned but I think we are living longer despite of being fatter. Also, quality of life is a related and important discussion.

Indeed, we may be living longer BECAUSE WE ARE FATTER. Among non-smokers, aged 29-59, mortality rates for overweight and obese are 66% and 77% of that for normal weight!

Quality of life ? If by that you mean the ability to move around and perform daily functions, active life expectancy is growing faster than life expectancy. So, in a sense, not only are we living longer, but we are healthier than ever.

[ATL_Gator]

Do not discount advancing medical technology.

[Dreamliner]

Do not discount advancing medical technology.

This is very true. But the impression persists that we're only living longer because they've got us hooked up to life support machines.

Also, it is those same technologies that are enabling people in our peer countries to live longer.

Also, bear in mind that we're living long enough to contract more and more of the diseases that are associated with aging.

[ATL_Gator]

This is very true. But the impression persists that we're only living longer because they've got us hooked up to life support machines.

Also, it is those same technologies that are enabling people in our peer countries to live longer.

Also, bear in mind that we're living long enough to contract more and more of the diseases that are associated with aging.

That last line is KEY...

And it's not just the hooking up to machines that is getting better and getting us to live longer. Technology advances the long term treatments when they are needed. Not only do the treatments get better, they are also getting easier. More complicated plans are more likely to have patients stop/deviate from the treatment. Easier plans means following the plan better for longer periods of time, which lead to presumably longer life with the condition.

Detection technology is getting better, so we can find problems and address them earlier. With anything.. Early detection is KEY to effective treatment.

[MeyerIsBack]

Indeed, we may be living longer BECAUSE WE ARE FATTER. Among non-smokers, aged 29-59, mortality rates for overweight and obese are 66% and 77% of that for normal weight!

Quality of life ? If by that you mean the ability to move around and perform daily functions, active life expectancy is growing faster than life expectancy. So, in a sense, not only are we living longer, but we are healthier than ever.

Clearly not my point. I would argue medicine is advancing and keeping people alive longer. Correlation does not prove causation.

So you are saying that with all other things being equal you believe a person that is 20, 50, or 100 pounds overweight has an equal quality of life to a person that is a healthy weight?

[ATL_Gator]

Clearly not my point. I would argue medicine is advancing and keeping people alive longer. Correlation does not prove causation.

So you are saying that with all other things being equal you believe a person that is 20, 50, or 100 pounds overweight has an equal quality of life to a person that is a healthy weight?

Just to stand on the fence here...

keep in mind that "quality of life" is subjective.

If a person is 50 lb overweight, doesn't exercise, but doesn't experience ANY physical limitations in what he/she WANTS to do and is perfectly happy in that... I would argue they are living a "high quality of life".

Just because they can't run a marathon and lift the back end of a Volkswagen (at the same time?) doesn't mean they suffer from any less quality of life when compared to a person who can.

IF any person wants to do something, but they can not do it because of physical limitations DUE to their decisions (I.E. if they made different decisions, they could do this).. THEN they are experiencing a reduced quality of life.

[Dreamliner]

Clearly not my point. I would argue medicine is advancing and keeping people alive longer. Correlation does not prove causation.

So you are saying that with all other things being equal you believe a person that is 20, 50, or 100 pounds overweight has an equal quality of life to a person that is a healthy weight?

For that matter, 'correlation does not prove causation' applies to medication as well. Ex: cholesterol drugs only appear to be marginally effective for a small segment of people who take them.

And remember, to correct you, I am not saying anything. I'm just reading the research from the CDC, JAMA and other organizations. They strongly confirm what both researchers and physicians have been calling the 'Obesity Paradox' for years.

[MeyerIsBack]

Just to stand on the fence here...

keep in mind that "quality of life" is subjective.

If a person is 50 lb overweight, doesn't exercise, but doesn't experience ANY physical limitations in what he/she WANTS to do and is perfectly happy in that... I would argue they are living a "high quality of life".

Just because they can't run a marathon and lift the back end of a Volkswagen (at the same time?) doesn't mean they suffer from any less quality of life when compared to a person who can.

IF any person wants to do something, but they can not do it because of physical limitations DUE to their decisions (I.E. if they made different decisions, they could do this).. THEN they are experiencing a reduced quality of life.

Things like grocery shopping, mowing the lawn, cleaning, playing with kids, playing with grand kids, or any kind of athletic activities are easier skinny people. Some of these things, depending on the level of obesity, are only possible for the skinny person. When you start limiting things that you can do because of weight then I would assume that would hurt quality of life.

[ATL_Gator]

Things like grocery shopping, mowing the lawn, cleaning, playing with kids, playing with grand kids, or any kind of athletic activities are easier skinny people. Some of these things, depending on the level of obesity, are only possible for the skinny person. When you start limiting things that you can do because of weight then I would assume that would hurt quality of life.

I would agree 100%, if you change one word....

"When you start limiting things that you want to do because of weight then I would assume that would hurt quality of life."

In my current state, I can not go mountain climbing (i.e. rock climbing). I do not have the strength to do so, nor the stamina. I do not see how that reduces my quality of life because I really do not want to go mountain climbing.. at all.

If I wanted to, and couldn't... then yes. I agree.

[Dreamliner]

Quality of Life is such a squishy term.

[MeyerIsBack]

Quality of Life is such a squishy term.

I would be glad to hear a better term.
what point does weight become debilitating?

When you lose your breath going up stairs?
When you can no longer take the stairs?
When a young person needs help getting out of a chair?

Or is it just when you somebody says 'I wish I was skinnier'? Vanity?

I would be glad to call it something else but I think it is a real factor.

[ATL_Gator]

Quality of Life is such a squishy term.

Exactly. To make it worse, it changes with time. UGH!

All I can personally tell you... what I want to do now is slightly different than 10 years ago, and I am sure will be somewhat different in another 10.

[ATL_Gator]

I would be glad to hear a better term.
what point does weight become debilitating?

When you lose your breath going up stairs?
When you can no longer take the stairs?
When a young person needs help getting out of a chair?

Or is it just when you somebody says 'I wish I was skinnier'? Vanity?

I would be glad to call it something else but I think it is a real factor.

IMO, it only matters when someone cares about any of that.

IF they don't care that they need a scooter to get around the grocery store (and EVERYTHING that goes along with that), then who is someone else to tell them they are suffering a reduced quality of life? That is not for someone else to decide.

IF they have a problem with my 4 year old asking me quite loudly why they are fat and using a scooter inside... then that is a different story.

[Dreamliner]

I would be glad to hear a better term.
what point does weight become debilitating?

When you lose your breath going up stairs?
When you can no longer take the stairs?
When a young person needs help getting out of a chair?

Or is it just when you somebody says 'I wish I was skinnier'? Vanity?

I would be glad to call it something else but I think it is a real factor.

We're STILL back to the issue of the almost certain inevitability of weight regain.

A fat person can indeed improve conditioning.

Orthopedists are particularly bad about putting thin people on exercise, for joint pain, but simply telling fat people to lose weight.

[Dreamliner]

Meyer, you seem to be talking about morbid obesity. This is indeed a serious problem. And the folks at the extreme ends of the curve, the underweight and the morbidly obese die earlier.

[MeyerIsBack]

IMO, it only matters when someone cares about any of that.

IF they don't care that they need a scooter to get around the grocery store (and EVERYTHING that goes along with that), then who is someone else to tell them they are suffering a reduced quality of life? That is not for someone else to decide.

IF they have a problem with my 4 year old asking me quite loudly why they are fat and using a scooter inside... then that is a different story.

I 100% agree with everything you said. I just have a hard time reconciling that would be a happy life for somebody.

[MeyerIsBack]

We're STILL back to the issue of the almost certain inevitability of weight regain.

A fat person can indeed improve conditioning.

Orthopedists are particularly bad about putting thin people on exercise, for joint pain, but simply telling fat people to lose weight.

To sum it up

1. We are not sure if there is any reason to be skinny
2. There is no point in losing weight because we will just regain.

Are you sure you are in the right line of work?

[Dreamliner]

To sum it up

1. We are not sure if there is any reason to be skinny
2. There is no point in losing weight because we will just regain.

Are you sure you are in the right line of work?

Hehe, I see myself at the crest of a new wave of helping professionals. Who said you had to lose a bunch of weight to be fit ? Who made up the rule that people of all shapes and sizes can't improve their health through more intuitive eating and some level of activity ?

If anything, I see myself as an advocate for people of all shapes and sizes and one who can aid them in breaking free of the tyranny of chronic dieting and the unrelenting pressure to become a shape that is not in the cards for them.

Hey, I myself had to reckon with the knowledge that I will never be a muscular man. It just ain't going to happen.

[MeyerIsBack]

Hehe, I see myself at the crest of a new wave of helping professionals. Who said you had to lose a bunch of weight to be fit ? Who made up the rule that people of all shapes and sizes can't improve their health through more intuitive eating and some level of activity ?

If anything, I see myself as an advocate for people of all shapes and sizes and one who can aid them in breaking free of the tyranny of chronic dieting and the unrelenting pressure to become a shape that is not in the cards for them.

Hey, I myself had to reckon with the knowledge that I will never be a muscular man. It just ain't going to happen.

Have you changed your views recently because I used to find myself agreeing with you more often? I really liked your model about sustainable lifestyle changes. I just don't agree that there are people who canNOT be a reasonable weight. I feel like you have gone to the dark side.

[ATL_Gator]

Have you changed your views recently because I used to find myself agreeing with you more often? I really liked your model about sustainable lifestyle changes. I just don't agree that there are people who canNOT be a reasonable weight. I feel like you have gone to the dark side.

I was thinking the same thing.

[Dreamliner]

Have you changed your views recently because I used to find myself agreeing with you more often? I really liked your model about sustainable lifestyle changes. I just don't agree that there are people who canNOT be a reasonable weight. I feel like you have gone to the dark side.

Yeah, it was your agreeing with me so much that caused me to reevaluate. :wink:

Look, I hear what you're saying. It sounds like I'm encouraging people to just give up. In reality, I'm encouraging people to wise up.

I'm still very much into sustainability though. But I believe there is a world of difference between sustaining healthy weight range and, for most people, sustaining substantial weight loss.

Again I'd like to state that whereas I will not invite anyone to consciously lose weight (do no harm), I will not be surprised if some lose weight simply by learning to eat more intuitively and add activity.

I further anticipate that I will be meeting people who are somewhere on the weight-loss/weight-regain continuum. My sister is a good example. Though naturally thin like me, she's a marathoner. But since landing a new consulting job she has been forced to cut back on running and has gained about ten pounds. She thinks she's fat but is probably within her natural weight range such that if she resumes her running, the weight will probably come back off.

[MeyerIsBack]

Yeah, it was your agreeing with me so much that caused me to reevaluate. :wink:

Look, I hear what you're saying. It sounds like I'm encouraging people to just give up. In reality, I'm encouraging people to wise up.

I'm still very much into sustainability though. But I believe there is a world of difference between sustaining healthy weight range and, for most people, sustaining substantial weight loss.

Again I'd like to state that whereas I will not invite anyone to consciously lose weight (do no harm), I will not be surprised if some lose weight simply by learning to eat more intuitively and add activity.

I further anticipate that I will be meeting people who are somewhere on the weight-loss/weight-regain continuum. My sister is a good example. Though naturally thin like me, she's a marathoner. But since landing a new consulting job she has been forced to cut back on running and has gained about ten pounds. She thinks she's fat but is probably within her natural weight range such that if she resumes her running, the weight will probably come back off.
I will stop outwardly agreeing with you if you come back to the good guys.

Just an FYI. I have been in pretty good shape most of my adult life. I had a baby 21 months ago. She had trouble sleeping because of a multitude of minor health issues. In an effort to keep up with her needs, I neglected myself and put on about 25 pounds. Your posts on this forum were instrumental in me getting back in shape. I really am thankful for your input.

[Dreamliner]

I will stop outwardly agreeing with you if you come back to the good guys.

Just an FYI. I have been in pretty good shape most of my adult life. I had a baby 21 months ago. She had trouble sleeping because of a multitude of minor health issues. In an effort to keep up with her needs, I neglected myself and put on about 25 pounds. Your posts on this forum were instrumental in me getting back in shape. I really am thankful for your input.

I'm very happy to hear that. Is it possible that your current weight is closer to your natural weight ? If you were a good deal less active than usual - and if your eating was a bit disjointed - I can see where that might be the case.

I'm now partial to the setpoint theory, or something like it, which presupposes that the body is hardwired to maintain a particular weight range, within 10-15 pounds for most.

My personal experience is that my weight fluctuates five pounds, skinny as I am, based on activity level or if I binge for a bit.

But I've come to my senses on believing that people can just lose any amount of weight they wish and keep it off via willpower. Refer to the National Weight Control Registry to read about the ends that people typically go to to maintain weight-loss of thirty pounds or more for as little as a year.

There are some who believe you can systematically ratchet your setpoint down, but it strikes me as a bit of quackery.

Is it sad that people can't significantly change their shapes ? Or is it sad that people cannot be happy with the basic shapes they were essentially born with due to arbitrary cultural norms ?

[MeyerIsBack]

I'm very happy to hear that. Is it possible that your current weight is closer to your natural weight ? If you were a good deal less active than usual - and if your eating was a bit disjointed - I can see where that might be the case.

I'm now partial to the setpoint theory, or something like it, which presupposes that the body is hardwired to maintain a particular weight range, within 10-15 pounds for most.

My personal experience is that my weight fluctuates five pounds, skinny as I am, based on activity level or if I binge for a bit.

But I've come to my senses on believing that people can just lose any amount of weight they wish and keep it off via willpower. Refer to the National Weight Control Registry to read about the ends that people typically go to to maintain weight-loss of thirty pounds or more for as little as a year.

There are some who believe you can systematically ratchet your setpoint down, but it strikes me as a bit of quackery.

Is it sad that people can't significantly change their shapes ? Or is it sad that people cannot be happy with the basic shapes they were essentially born with due to arbitrary cultural norms ?

I like to eat. So for me to maintain a healthy weight, I either have to monitor my eating or increase my activity. I really do a combination of both. If I had to say I had a 'natural weight', I would say it was the higher weight because that is the weight I ended up at without thinking about it. However, I don't really think there is a natural weight. I think there are bad eating habits and low activity. I think people may gravitate towards certain weights because of their habits but I don't believe that a person is born physiologically predetermined to be obese.

But I've come to my senses on believing that people can just lose any amount of weight they wish and keep it off via willpower.

I actually kind of agree with you on this because of its documented failure rate. I believe people SHOULD be able to lose weight and maintain the loss. However, that is obviously not the case. I would hypothesize that it is more of a behavioral and psychological issue than physiological.


Is it sad that people can't significantly change their shapes ? Or is it sad that people cannot be happy with the basic shapes they were essentially born with due to arbitrary cultural norms ?

There are obviously weird body shapes but obesity (IMHO) is the result of a lifestyle. I have no sympathy for obesity. I have a weird soft spot for generational obesity because it is almost like that is all they ever knew. Almost like generational welfare. I think the saddest part is the constant conflicting information that gives fat people justification for being fat. It is now nearly impossible to argue that a person can lose weight because every fat person claims to have a slow 'metabolism'. Or uses 'starvation mode' as a reason to not eat too 'little'. When in reality the majority of these people are well over daily recommended values because they have no clue what 2,000 calories looks like. That is the saddest part to me.

The other extremely upsetting trend is that people get fat, get depressed (These first two may be reversed, there is a chicken and egg debate), end up on antidepressants, gain more weight, which heightens depression. The newer short life-cycle SSRIs are hard to discontinue so people spend a lifetime on these drugs that make weight loss even harder. I think I read that 11% of people over the age of 12 are on antidepressants. The effectiveness (especially of newer drugs) is also in serious question. Which is another question I have about weight gain. Does weight gain cause medical problems that require medicine that cause more medical problems?

[MeyerIsBack]

More on the recently released compilation of studies showing people who are overweight with less mortality risks than people of normal weight:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/10/rethinking-thin.html

For the record, because I've been muddled for awhile about the supposed link between obesity and mortality, I have never resorted to fearmongering with fat people. In fact, I never badger people about their weight. That's entirely their business. I turn my attention and efforts towards people who think their fat is ugly.

Is this their weight when they die? Healthy old people tend to gain a little weight as they age. This could easily put people into the overweight category of BMI at the end of their life. It would be interesting to see their weights when they were in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s.

[ATL_Gator]

MeyerIsBack... I thought you were a guy. Imagine my surprise in reading the "I had a baby" bit! :)

Is this their weight when they die? Healthy old people tend to gain a little weight as they age. This could easily put people into the overweight category of BMI at the end of their life. It would be interesting to see their weights when they were in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s.

I have this same question, plus some others about the actual study (and my skepticism about it)... I have not found a link to the actual study that isn't a paid link, unfortunately. And it doesn't intrigue me enough to pull out the wallet.

[MeyerIsBack]

MeyerIsBack... I thought you were a guy. Imagine my surprise in reading the "I had a baby" bit! :)

I am a guy. I said that wrong. My wife had a baby. we both work, so we have shared the baby responsibilities.

[ATL_Gator]

AAHH.. Gotcha.

PHEW. Thought for a second I was going crazy. All is right in my brain again... well, maybe "right" isn't the correct term.

[Dreamliner]

MeyerIsBack... I thought you were a guy. Imagine my surprise in reading the "I had a baby" bit! :)



I have this same question, plus some others about the actual study (and my skepticism about it)... I have not found a link to the actual study that isn't a paid link, unfortunately. And it doesn't intrigue me enough to pull out the wallet.

Just google 'jama ovesity' or 'cdc obesity.' They're all over the place.

Or spare yourself the trouble and reckon with the obvious fact that we're getting fatter and fatter and living (actively) longer and longer.

[MeyerIsBack]

I google CDC obesity and found this
http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/causes/index.html
What are the consequences of overweight and obesity?
Health Consequences
Research has shown that as weight increases to reach the levels referred to as "overweight" and "obesity,"* the risks for the following conditions also increases:1
Coronary heart disease
Type 2 diabetes
Cancers (endometrial, breast, and colon)
Hypertension (high blood pressure)
Dyslipidemia (for example, high total cholesterol or high levels of triglycerides)
Stroke
Liver and Gallbladder disease
Sleep apnea and respiratory problems
Osteoarthritis (a degeneration of cartilage and its underlying bone within a joint)
Gynecological problems (abnormal menses, infertility)
*Overweight is defined as a body mass index (BMI) of 25 or higher; obesity is defined as a BMI of 30 or higher. For more, see Defining Obesity.

[MeyerIsBack]

Or spare yourself the trouble and reckon with the obvious fact that we're getting fatter and fatter and living (actively) longer and longer.

We don't live in a vacuum.

[Dreamliner]

I like to eat. So for me to maintain a healthy weight, I either have to monitor my eating or increase my activity. I really do a combination of both. If I had to say I had a 'natural weight', I would say it was the higher weight because that is the weight I ended up at without thinking about it. However, I don't really think there is a natural weight. I think there are bad eating habits and low activity. I think people may gravitate towards certain weights because of their habits but I don't believe that a person is born physiologically predetermined to be obese.



I actually kind of agree with you on this because of its documented failure rate. I believe people SHOULD be able to lose weight and maintain the loss. However, that is obviously not the case. I would hypothesize that it is more of a behavioral and psychological issue than physiological.



There are obviously weird body shapes but obesity (IMHO) is the result of a lifestyle. I have no sympathy for obesity. I have a weird soft spot for generational obesity because it is almost like that is all they ever knew. Almost like generational welfare. I think the saddest part is the constant conflicting information that gives fat people justification for being fat. It is now nearly impossible to argue that a person can lose weight because every fat person claims to have a slow 'metabolism'. Or uses 'starvation mode' as a reason to not eat too 'little'. When in reality the majority of these people are well over daily recommended values because they have no clue what 2,000 calories looks like. That is the saddest part to me.

The other extremely upsetting trend is that people get fat, get depressed (These first two may be reversed, there is a chicken and egg debate), end up on antidepressants, gain more weight, which heightens depression. The newer short life-cycle SSRIs are hard to discontinue so people spend a lifetime on these drugs that make weight loss even harder. I think I read that 11% of people over the age of 12 are on antidepressants. The effectiveness (especially of newer drugs) is also in serious question. Which is another question I have about weight gain. Does weight gain cause medical problems that require medicine that cause more medical problems?

You're propensity to gain weight could well be behavioral and/or emotional. Most people aren't very active. Many if not most are emotional eaters. Add activity, eat when hungry, stop when satisfied, find other outlets for stress and boredom ... and I suspect many will settle into their happy, healthy weight.

BUT, your attitude on obesity needs some adjustment. We KNOW that obesity is genetic. There is no longer any question about this. And I myself had to overcome my inbred predjudices and reexamine the stereotypes about obese people. Ex: obese people I know are manifestly NOT lazy. Nor do they just shovel food down.

You might become more compassionate when you realize that attitudes like I used to harbor, like you still harbor, are likely at the root of why many obese people are actually deeply disenchanted with the way they look and are frequently trying (and failing) to get the weight off. It may also be at the root of why they medicate themselves. And the medications may also cause weight gain.

In point of fact, anti-anxiety meds and antidepressants my be THE primary cause of weight gain across the board. It's not like we've become less active since 1980. We haven't.

[MeyerIsBack]

BUT, your attitude on obesity needs some adjustment.


Very well


We KNOW that obesity is genetic. There is no longer any question about this.


I don't know this. You may.


And I myself had to overcome my inbred predjudices and reexamine the stereotypes about obese people. Ex: obese people I know are manifestly NOT lazy. Nor do they just shovel food down.


Are you saying that being overweight is not the result of a caloric surplus. You can call it what you like.


You might become more compassionate when you realize that attitudes like I used to harbor, like you still harbor, are likely at the root of why many obese people are actually deeply disenchanted with the way they look and are frequently trying (and failing) to get the weight off. It may also be at the root of why they medicate themselves. And the medications may also cause weight gain.

So you are saying it is my fault people are fat. Good God man. I have no words


In point of fact, anti-anxiety meds and antidepressants my be THE primary cause of weight gain across the board. It's not like we've become less active since 1980. We haven't. It's possible

[Dreamliner]

Yes, I'm saying that prevailing cultural attitudes strongly play into the attitudes of fat people. That is to say that they are acutely aware that you think they look ugly.

Yes, fat people require caloric surpluses to reach their existing weights. And this is something that you ought to be able to identify with. It is a very powerful unconscious drive that cause you to tend towards your heavier weight. And it takes an enormous amount of discipline to maintain the lower weight. Might this pronounced (seemingly unfair) balance constitute evidence that your body knows what it wants to weigh ?

Remember that I experience the reverse problem. It seems natural to be skinny. It seems unnatural to be as little as ten pounds heavier. I feel like I'm having to stuff myself.

Don't forget, in all of this, that we now know that not only is obesity genetic (you seem close to acknowledging this), we also know that obesity is not unhealthy, per se.

[MeyerIsBack]

That is to say that they are acutely aware that you think they look ugly.
When did I say that I think overweight people look ugly?


Yes, fat people require caloric surpluses to reach their existing weights.
And this is something that you ought to be able to identify with.
It is something I can identify with. I can also identify with caloric deficits. As well as a caloric balance.


It is a very powerful unconscious drive that cause you to tend towards your heavier weight. And it takes an enormous amount of discipline to maintain the lower weight. From my experience you are greatly overstating this. It is something a person is willing to do or is not willing to do.


Might this pronounced (seemingly unfair) balance constitute evidence that your body knows what it wants to weigh ?
I think it is evidence that we eat more calories and move less.



Don't forget, in all of this, that we now know that not only is obesity genetic (you seem close to acknowledging this), we also know that obesity is not unhealthy, per se. I don't believe either of these things nor am I close to believing them. I actually have a post earlier in this thread from the CDC that lists the problems caused by obesity.

[Dreamliner]

When did I say that I think overweight people look ugly?


It is something I can identify with. I can also identify with caloric deficits. As well as a caloric balance.

From my experience you are greatly overstating this. It is something a person is willing to do or is not willing to do.

I think it is evidence that we eat more calories and move less.


I don't believe either of these things nor am I close to believing them. I actually have a post earlier in this thread from the CDC that lists the problems caused by obesity.

You said you "have no sympathy for obesity." You must find it repulsive on some level.

Fat people are typically *willing* to be thin. And they typically try to be thin more often that people like me try to be more muscular. Is it possible that you are *understating* the problem ?

Never mind others. Thinks about you. You don't have to try to stay slightly pudgy. You have to try to stay lean.

Yes, people tend to eat more than they need and possibly move less than should. But again, the body ramps up hunger and literally slows you down to maintain weight. And in fact, when you lose weight, not only does hunger tend to increase but general activity levels decrease. It's all part-and-parcel of survival mechanisms.

[malligator]

Tomorrow (2/1/13) will by the 3 year anniversary of my transformation. On 2/1/10 I was 290 and am now 200 (heading to 180). It is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life and I know that keeping it off will be a major task for the rest of my life. I gain weight ridiculously easily so I have to be ever vigilant to keep it off. With all the peaks and valleys of my body weight over the last three years I've probably lost 200 pounds total to get here.

Dream, I know the numbers aren't in my favor for keeping it off, but I'll work everyday to make sure I'm one of the few that do. I agree with your natural weight belief, though. Sometimes I want to binge so godam bad I can't stand it. All you naturally skinny sumbitches (:)) can believe I have no willpower, but until you've been fat you have no idea what real cravings feel like. :)

[Dreamliner]

Tomorrow (2/1/13) will by the 3 year anniversary of my transformation. On 2/1/10 I was 290 and am now 200 (heading to 180). It is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life and I know that keeping it off will be a major task for the rest of my life. I gain weight ridiculously easily so I have to be ever vigilant to keep it off. With all the peaks and valleys of my body weight over the last three years I've probably lost 200 pounds total to get here.

Dream, I know the numbers aren't in my favor for keeping it off, but I'll work everyday to make sure I'm one of the few that do.

And please understand that I'm saying more power to you. Obviously, some are successful. I hope, for your sake, that you're one of them.

But obviously it is not a natural state of affairs, white-knuckling to keep your weight well under where your body wants and needs to be.

[MeyerIsBack]

You said you "have no sympathy for obesity." You must find it repulsive on some level.

Again I never used the word 'ugly' nor is it even in the realm of my discussion here; so,you are putting words in my mouth. Just like the word 'repulsive'. 'Sympathy' (the word I used) is lacking because I believe someone's weight is the direct result of lifestyle choices.


Fat people are typically *willing* to be thin. And they typically try to be thin more often that people like me try to be more muscular. Is it possible that you are *understating* the problem ?

I would love for you to expand on the word 'trying'. I have yet to meet a person who is overweight that can't lose weight. Surely, there are challenges but only a very few cannot be overcome.


Never mind others. Thinks about you. You don't have to try to stay slightly pudgy. You have to try to stay lean.

What is so bad about having to put a little effort or thought into maintaining health? I would also argue that we are fighting against cultural norms to remain healthy. If we could change these norms, it would make it easier for everyone to remain healthy.


Yes, people tend to eat more than they need and possibly move less than should. But again, the body ramps up hunger and literally slows you down to maintain weight. And in fact, when you lose weight, not only does hunger tend to increase but general activity levels decrease. It's all part-and-parcel of survival mechanisms.

A caloric deficit tends to cause a decrease in the amount of calories burned. However, the slow down in calorie burning is small compared to the deficit. The result is a caloric deficit, AKA, weight loss.


-----
What exactly are you suggesting?

I think you are saying that people should never worry about weight because it is not controllable. Also, you seem to be suggesting that there are no health implications to being overweight (this obviously ignores common scientific beliefs). Please correct me if I am wrong. And what is this 'healthy fat' you seem to be promoting?

What about young people?

Should we forget about teaching them to eat healthy and exercise because 'their body' is already predetermined to be the weight it is going to be?

It is like you believe people are powerless against food/fat. I am not buying it.

[MeyerIsBack]

Tomorrow (2/1/13) will by the 3 year anniversary of my transformation. On 2/1/10 I was 290 and am now 200 (heading to 180). It is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life and I know that keeping it off will be a major task for the rest of my life. I gain weight ridiculously easily so I have to be ever vigilant to keep it off. With all the peaks and valleys of my body weight over the last three years I've probably lost 200 pounds total to get here.

Dream, I know the numbers aren't in my favor for keeping it off, but I'll work everyday to make sure I'm one of the few that do. I agree with your natural weight belief, though. Sometimes I want to binge so godam bad I can't stand it. All you naturally skinny sumbitches (:)) can believe I have no willpower, but until you've been fat you have no idea what real cravings feel like. :)
Congrats. You obviously have willpower if you have made it this far.

[Dreamliner]

Again I never used the word 'ugly' nor is it even in the realm of my discussion here; so,you are putting words in my mouth. Just like the word 'repulsive'. 'Sympathy' (the word I used) is lacking because I believe someone's weight is the direct result of lifestyle choices.



I would love for you to expand on the word 'trying'. I have yet to meet a person who is overweight that can't lose weight. Surely, there are challenges but only a very few cannot be overcome.



What is so bad about having to put a little effort or thought into maintaining health? I would also argue that we are fighting against cultural norms to remain healthy. If we could change these norms, it would make it easier for everyone to remain healthy.



A caloric deficit tends to cause a decrease in the amount of calories burned. However, the slow down in calorie burning is small compared to the deficit. The result is a caloric deficit, AKA, weight loss.


-----
What exactly are you suggesting?

I think you are saying that people should never worry about weight because it is not controllable. Also, you seem to be suggesting that there are no health implications to being overweight (this obviously ignores common scientific beliefs). Please correct me if I am wrong. And what is this 'healthy fat' you seem to be promoting?

What about young people?

Should we forget about teaching them to eat healthy and exercise because 'their body' is already predetermined to be the weight it is going to be?

It is like you believe people are powerless against food/fat. I am not buying it.

I just don't think the facts fit your simplistic views on bodyshape. You're defensive, as I was, and are straining to avoid the implications of the evidence.

And you're still missing the point on weight-loss. Nobody said you can't lose weight. Damn near everyone can lose weight SHORT-TERM. Almost nobody can keep it off for any appreciable amount of time. You seem to acknowledge the weight-loss maintenance issue yet continue to seek refuge in the notion of short-term weight-loss.

Who said don't exercise ? As far as I'm concerned, exercise has documented health benefits. BUT the problem with exercise is that recidivism is as high as with weight-loss. Better that most should find an activity they enjoy, which may be as simple as walking.

Finally, what is 'eating healthy' ? Is eating to lose weight, then gaining it back, eating to lose weight, then gaining it back, eating to lose weight, then gaining it back ... healthy ?

[MeyerIsBack]

I just don't think the facts fit your simplistic views on bodyshape. You're defensive, as I was, and are straining to avoid the implications of the evidence.

I suppose I oppose your view point strongly. If that makes me 'defensive' about my 'simplistic views' then so be it. And yes I do fail to see the implications of this evidence in the same light as you because I certainly don't draw the same conclusions as you do.


And you're still missing the point on weight-loss. Nobody said you can't lose weight.
There has been a whole lot going on in this thread. Discussions about 'genetic obesity' and predetermined body types. Those terms suggest to me that a physiological incapability to lose weight exists. There may be a disconnect in my interpretation.


Damn near everyone can lose weight SHORT-TERM. Almost nobody can keep it off for any appreciable amount of time. You seem to acknowledge the weight-loss maintenance issue yet continue to seek refuge in the notion of short-term weight-loss.

I certainly acknowledge the failure rate in maintaining weight loss. I just strongly disagree that the solution is to just accept obesity. I actually thought one of the better suggestions I have ever heard was yours about sustainable changes.


Who said don't exercise ? As far as I'm concerned, exercise has documented health benefits. BUT the problem with exercise is that recidivism is as high as with weight-loss. Better that most should find an activity they enjoy, which may be as simple as walking.

My apologies. I agree that activity is an important factor to a healthy lifestyle.


Finally, what is 'eating healthy' ? Is eating to lose weight, then gaining it back, eating to lose weight, then gaining it back, eating to lose weight, then gaining it back ... healthy ?

Eating healthy is eating at maintenance. In a perfect world people would be at a healthy weight and not gaining or losing. Also, food should provide the proper nutrients; which is not nearly as complicated as people make it (IMO).

[Dreamliner]

I understand that this 'new paradigm' is off-putting. It seems like giving up. I call it wising up. And it would be one thing for me to say "Obesity is bad, too bad you can't lose weight and keep it off", and another to say "Obesity is not bad, so why are you hell-bent on losing all that weight ?"

I'm saying the facts point to the latter.

Keep your eye on the ball. The issue is not short-term weight loss but rather the inability of willpower to override, for any length of time, the very powerful, unconscious drive to maintain fixed weight-range.

No need to apologize on the exercise. Indeed, I've been a little chippy myself and apologize for that.

And we may not be far apart on what healthy eating constitutes. If, as I suspect, the body is wired to maintain a fixed weight-range, then eating healthy would be not stressing about one's lot, eating the foods they enjoy (1) when hungry (2) and stopping when satisfied.

[MeyerIsBack]

I understand that this 'new paradigm' is off-putting. It seems like giving up. I call it wising up. And it would be one thing for me to say "Obesity is bad, too bad you can't lose weight and keep it off", and another to say "Obesity is not bad, so why are you hell-bent on losing all that weight ?"

Maybe our disconnect is that I don't draw the conclusion that obesity is healthy. If I believed obesity was healthy then I would probably agree with your other assessments.

I'm saying the facts point to the latter.
I still really think the facts overwhelmingly point to obesity being unhealthy.

I will again point you to the CDC site that you seem to trust: http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/causes/index.html

Keep your eye on the ball. The issue is not short-term weight loss but rather the inability of willpower to override, for any length of time, the very powerful, unconscious drive to maintain fixed weight-range.

I agree about long term weight loss maintenance failing often. It is an issue. However, I think it needs a solution, whereas, you think it is reason to not try. Until we agree on the consequences of being obese, this discussion will just continue to spin.


(1) when hungry (2) and stopping when satisfied. I agree but these sensations are hard for people to recognize.

If you believed obesity was unhealthy what would be your approach to obesity?

What is your take on childhood obesity?

[Dreamliner]

CDC was forced to back down, in 2005, from their dire pronouncements:

http://www.obesitymyths.com/myth2.7.htm

So, if obesity is not unhealthy, why do we need a 'solution' ?

But even if I did believe that obesity is unhealthy, how could I entice people into doing something (losing weight) which they find so frustrating and stressful ? We're all going to die. Why should people torment themselves even if they believed it might by them 2-3 years ?

Childhood obesity = adult obesity. If adult obesity is not unhealthy, why should child obesity be unhealthy ? BUT, the notion of a child obesity epidemic rests on the same flawed assumptions that spawned the fake adult obesity crisis. On average, Americans have gotten slightly heavier, which has shifted the bell curve slightly to the right of the arbitrary cutoff point based on the dubious metric which is BMI.

[Dreamliner]

On obesity and health risk:

http://www.obesitymyths.com/myth2.11.htm

[MeyerIsBack]

You are disparaging the CDC because of one study which I have not made reference too. It seems they skewed that study but does that make obesity healthy? Are you suggesting that the list of health issues attributed to obesity is not true? You are also basing your 'new paradigm' on a single statistical analysis that goes against traditional wisdom and is not above reproach. I have already stated that I am skeptical about the study because of the snapshot quality of weight. Best of luck with your 'new paradigm', I just feel your sudden epiphany is taking you down the wrong path.

[Dreamliner]

You are disparaging the CDC because of one study which I have not made reference too. It seems they skewed that study but does that make obesity healthy? Are you suggesting that the list of health issues attributed to obesity is not true? You are also basing your 'new paradigm' on a single statistical analysis that goes against traditional wisdom and is not above reproach. I have already stated that I am skeptical about the study because of the snapshot quality of weight. Best of luck with your 'new paradigm', I just feel your sudden epiphany is taking you down the wrong path.

I'm not disparaging the CDC. I am pointing out that much of the fear connected with obesity can be attributed to the studies which scary pronouncements they were forced to publicly walk back.

As it turns out, more people die from being underweight than from being morbidly obese. Neither of those extremes are safe. But why aren't we hearing about a 'skinny crisis' ?

Yes, I am saying your statistics are not true. Please read the links I posted.

Again, researchers funded by the diet industry ASSUME that correlation is causation.

[malligator]

CDC was forced to back down, in 2005, from their dire pronouncements:

http://www.obesitymyths.com/myth2.7.htm

So, if obesity is not unhealthy, why do we need a 'solution' ?

But even if I did believe that obesity is unhealthy, how could I entice people into doing something (losing weight) which they find so frustrating and stressful ? We're all going to die. Why should people torment themselves even if they believed it might by them 2-3 years ?

Childhood obesity = adult obesity. If adult obesity is not unhealthy, why should child obesity be unhealthy ? BUT, the notion of a child obesity epidemic rests on the same flawed assumptions that spawned the fake adult obesity crisis. On average, Americans have gotten slightly heavier, which has shifted the bell curve slightly to the right of the arbitrary cutoff point based on the dubious metric which is BMI.


All I can say is that at 290 I was obese and I felt like crap...and looked like crap, too. Maybe I wasn't unhealthy, but my blood pressure, GI problems, kidney issues and poor quality of life would say otherwise.

I'll take 200 over 290 even if it shortens my life. I've been obese. I feel sorry for the people that will never break out of it. When you're obese you're several months, maybe even a few years, from a normal weight. I started working out and eating healthy 2/2010. After a month of working my ass off I was still obese. After three months of working my ass off I was still obese. After six months of working my ass off I was still overweight. I'm actually still overweight, but I feel good, my clothes fit me well, and women respond well to me so I'm pretty comfy.

To respond to your previous post to me I don't have to white knuckle it to stay at 200. I've learned a ton in the past three years and can maintain 200 without much problem. Getting to 180 will take some more white knuckling which is probably why I haven't done it, but if one makes a true lifestyle change I don't think keeping it off is impossible.

[MeyerIsBack]

Yes, I am saying your statistics are not true. Please read the links I posted.


I did read your links, did you read mine? I have never shared statistics. The only link I shared is the list of medical conditions attributed to obesity directly from the CDC. That list has nothing to do with the CDC obesity mortality study cited in your links. The CDC and most everyone agrees that there are serious health conditions caused by obesity.


Do you believe these conditions occur at a higher rate in overweight and obese people?

[Dreamliner]

All I can say is that at 290 I was obese and I felt like crap...and looked like crap, too. Maybe I wasn't unhealthy, but my blood pressure, GI problems, kidney issues and poor quality of life would say otherwise.

I'll take 200 over 290 even if it shortens my life. I've been obese. I feel sorry for the people that will never break out of it. When you're obese you're several months, maybe even a few years, from a normal weight. I started working out and eating healthy 2/2010. After a month of working my ass off I was still obese. After three months of working my ass off I was still obese. After six months of working my ass off I was still overweight. I'm actually still overweight, but I feel good, my clothes fit me well, and women respond well to me so I'm pretty comfy.

To respond to your previous post to me I don't have to white knuckle it to stay at 200. I've learned a ton in the past three years and can maintain 200 without much problem. Getting to 180 will take some more white knuckling which is probably why I haven't done it, but if one makes a true lifestyle change I don't think keeping it off is impossible.

Again, that's your call. I'm the one person in my profession constantly reminding people that we're all going to die. I'm just not going to be a party in helping people to do something that they are highly likely to be able to maintain.

And I was just responding to your "It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life."

[Dreamliner]

I did read your links, did you read mine? I have never shared statistics. The only link I shared is the list of medical conditions attributed to obesity directly from the CDC. That list has nothing to do with the CDC obesity mortality study cited in your links. The CDC and most everyone agrees that there are serious health conditions caused by obesity.


Do you believe these conditions occur at a higher rate in overweight and obese people?

And again I am pointing out that the 'statistics' ASSUME obesity as the cause. But this has not been demonstrated.

As Mark Twain remarked, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."

There is no obesity crisis. Americans are slightly heavier. They are getting older as they get heavier. As they get older they are more likely to contract the diseases associated with age. As they contract said diseases, researchers note that they are occurring in people who are getting heavier. They somehow conclude that it was the getting heavier part that caused the disease.

What happened with a former diabetic client of mine is probably typical. Her precipitous weight-gain occured *at the time of her diabetes diagnosis.* It was not likely the cause of her diabetes.

The cause was likely hereditary. Diabetes runs in her family. Aside: obese people have no more than a 6-8% risk of diabetes.

She lost weight under my tutelage. Sure enough, her blood glucose returned to normal. Her doctor was ecstatic and was able to reduce her insulin accordingly.

A few months later she had another heart attack. This is consistent with the federal study I cited which was discontinued on finding that weight loss, though helpful in reducing diabetes symptoms, does not prevent heart attacks.

But here again, my heavy client has now survived TWO heart attacks and is going strong. This is consistent with studies which show that obesity confers protection for not only diabetes but also heart attacks.

[malligator]

Again, that's your call. I'm the one person in my profession constantly reminding people that we're all going to die. I'm just not going to be a party in helping people to do something that they are highly likely to be able to maintain.

And I was just responding to your "It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life."

Um, you already do. Most people join gyms and then never go. Most people start a workout regimine and quit after two weeks. Most people buy running shoes, jog for a couple weeks and then wear them to the mall. Most people do not maintain a fitness program...which is what you do for a living.

[Dreamliner]

Um, you already do. Most people join gyms and then never go. Most people start a workout regimine and quit after two weeks. Most people buy running shoes, jog for a couple weeks and then wear them to the mall. Most people do not maintain a fitness program...which is what you do for a living.

I don't understand. What do I 'already do' ?

[malligator]

Something that people are highly unlikely to maintain.

[MeyerIsBack]

...

Good luck

[Dreamliner]

Something that people are highly unlikely to maintain.

I'm no longer doing that. In light of the research I've already publicly disavowed that strategy. And I have taken pains to check back with all my clients, former and current, to bring them up to speed on those changes.

[Dreamliner]

Since 1990 American women have gained all of 14 pounds, men all of 16 pounds. And I am going to posit that almost all or all of that very modest weight gain can be attributed to:

(1) Americans getting older

(2) Americans taking all manner of drugs which cause weight-gain

(3) More and more Americans quitting smoking, which causes weight-gain

(4) Chronic dieting which can lead to weight-gain

[malligator]

Since 1990 American women have gained all of 14 pounds, men all of 16 pounds. And I am going to posit that almost all or all of that very modest weight gain can be attributed to:

(1) Americans getting older

(2) Americans taking all manner of drugs which cause weight-gain

(3) More and more Americans quitting smoking, which causes weight-gain

(4) Chronic dieting which can lead to weight-gain

And the proliferation of very good, very dark, very rich microbrews. :)

[Dreamliner]

And the proliferation of very good, very dark, very rich microbrews. :)

Thanks, I never feel entirely comfortable with a four-point presentation anyway. I mean, who does a four-point ? It's always three or maybe five.