Moral McCarthyism

[QGator2414]

Excellent piece by Dr. Mohler.

Pastor Giglio bowed out of speaking at the inauguration because of his Biblical beliefs regarding homosexuality. The ironic statement by the White House was quite sad IMO. Christians need to stand strong for the Cross in a time where tolerance seems to have multiple definitions to some...

http://www.albertmohler.com/2013/01/10/the-giglio-imbroglio-the-public-inauguration-of-a-new-moral-mccarthyism/

"An imbroglio is a painful and embarrassing conflict. The imbroglio surrounding Louie Giglio is not only painful, it is revealing. We now see the new Moral McCarthyism in its undisguised and unvarnished reality. If you are a Christian, get ready for the question you will now undoubtedly face: “Do you now or have you ever believed that homosexuality is a sin?” There is nowhere to hide."

[bluelang]

Sorry, I haven't been keeping up with the news. Which congressperson is leading hearings designed at ferreting out, discrediting, and ruining the lives of Americans who think homosexuality is a sin?

[108]

How about Giglio just standing up for himself and not bowing out?

[QGator2414]

How about Giglio just standing up for himself and not bowing out?

I actually think he should have done as you suggest. But then again maybe it was on his heart to not do so. The White House statement speaks for itself though...

[wgbgator]

Well, they can probably hide in churches. Actually, they don't even need to hide. But serious question, if someone invited to the inaguration to speak expressed a view that was considered racist in their past, and withdrew when it was uncovered after some public pressure, do you think such a piece would be written, especially one invoking "moral McCarthyism?"

[ChartsandGrafs]

LOL, moral McCarthyism.

Joseph McCarthy was the rarest of high-level politicians who broke ranks with the Washington establishment, bravely stood up, and tried to sound the alarm on communist infiltration throughout the highest levels of our government. He was America's second coming of Paul Revere, and instead of taking him seriously, the American people thumbed their noses at him and went back to sleep. Evidence since that time (Venona decrypts) has proven him largely correct. The U.S. government was infested with communist spies and sympathizers.

His name being a bad word here in the present, even with the benefit of unassailable evidence and historical hindsight, is pretty good evidence that the infiltration was never reversed.

[QGator2414]

Well, they can probably hide in churches. Actually, they don't even need to hide. But serious question, if someone invited to the inaguration to speak expressed a view that was considered racist in their past, and withdrew when it was uncovered after some public pressure, do you think such a piece would be written, especially one invoking "moral McCarthyism?"

I have no clue. However we see there will be no tolerance for one that views homosexuality from a Biblical view. Even if they were not going to speak on the issue...

[QGator2414]

LOL, moral McCarthyism.

Joseph McCarthy was the rarest of high-level politicians who broke ranks with the Washington establishment, bravely stood up, and tried to sound the alarm on communist infiltration throughout the highest levels of our government. He was America's second coming of Paul Revere, and instead of taking him seriously, the American people thumbed their noses at him and went back to sleep. Evidence since that time (Venona decrypts) has proven him largely correct. The U.S. government was infested with communist spies and sympathizers.

His name being a bad word here in the present, even with the benefit of unassailable evidence and historical hindsight, is pretty good evidence that the infiltration was never reversed.

Interesting take.

[108]

I have no clue. However we see there will be no tolerance for one that views homosexuality from a Biblical view. Even if they were not going to speak on the issue...

untrue, Christians are tolerated, but this WH doesn't want to unintentionally promote intolerance of a group of citizens sexual orientation

orientation isn't a choice, Christianity is a belief system

[QGator2414]

untrue, Christians are tolerated, but this WH doesn't want to unintentionally promote intolerance of a group of citizens sexual orientation

orientation isn't a choice, Christianity is a belief system

The irony when you consider Giglio was not going to speak on homosexuality...

[QGator2414]

untrue, Christians are tolerated, but this WH doesn't want to unintentionally promote intolerance of a group of citizens sexual orientation

orientation isn't a choice, Christianity is a belief system

Says who?

[108]

The irony when you consider Giglio was not going to speak on homosexuality...

"unintentionally" as in indirectly

[northgagator]

untrue, Christians are tolerated, but this WH doesn't want to unintentionally promote intolerance of a group of citizens sexual orientation

You say that Team Obama so concerned about unintentionally promoting intolerance towards gays (wonder why you could not say that word).

Why isn't Team Obama concerned about unintentionally promoting intolerance towards Christians, Hebrews, Buddhist, and Hindu's?
They are doing just that with inviting Ingrid Mattson, president of the Islamic Society of North America. Please note that Islam has a lot on intolerance towards nonbelievers. Several Islamic countries do not allow bibles, Torah, women's rights, and most of all Homosexuality.
Oops, looks like Team Obama is going to unintentionally offend the gays any way.

orientation isn't a choice, Christianity is a belief system

To a degree you are correct. The inaccuracies is with a belief system. People may not be born with a belief system but many are immersed in it from day one. Under such indoctrination a belief system can be grafted into a person.

[Lawdog88]

The real irony is that . . . McCarthy was gay.

[108]

The real irony is that . . . McCarthy was gay.

Can't be that!

[Lawdog88]

http://www.nndb.com/people/490/000051337/

JOE McCARTHY

AKA Joseph Raymond McCarthyBorn: 14-Nov (http://www.nndb.com/lists/836/000106518/)-1908 (http://www.nndb.com/lists/907/000105592/)
Birthplace: Grand Chute, WI
Died: 2-May (http://www.nndb.com/lists/009/000106688/)-1957 (http://www.nndb.com/lists/467/000106149/)
Location of death: Bethesda, MD (http://www.nndb.com/geo/423/000069216/)
Cause of death: Hepatitis
Remains: Buried, St. Mary's Cemetery, Appleton, WI

Gender: Male
Religion: Roman Catholic (http://www.nndb.com/lists/758/000094476/)
Race or Ethnicity: White
Sexual orientation: Matter of Dispute (http://www.nndb.com/lists/243/000069036/)
Occupation: Politician
Party Affiliation: Republican
Nationality: United States
Executive summary: US Senator from Wisconsin, 1947-57
Military service: USMC (1942-45)

Senator Joe McCarthy is infamous for having exploited the specter of Communist infiltration in the government for his own aggrandizement. The man claimed to possess a list of 57 State Department employees who were known Communist moles. But instead of turning it over to the FBI for investigation, McCarthy chose to hold Congressional hearings to investigate the claims personally. These show trials made himself and his assistant Roy Cohn (http://www.nndb.com/people/903/000048759/) household names, and were discontinued only after it became clear that the entire effort had been nothing more than an exercise in destructive folly. Eventually the Senator died in office of peripheral neuritis, which was caused by decades of hard drinking.

In October 1952, Las Vegas Sun columnist Hank Greenspun wrote:<tt> Joe McCarthy is a bachelor of 43 years. [...] He seldom dates girls and if he does he laughingly describes it as window dressing. It is common talk among homosexuals in Milwaukee who rendezvous in the White Horse Inn that Senator Joe McCarthy has often engaged in homosexual activities. </tt>Another Greenspun article alleged:<tt> The Young Republicans held a state convention in Wausua, Wis., at which Sen. McCarthy was an honored guest. During the convention, McCarthy spent the night with William McMahon, formerly an official of the Milwaukee County Young Republicans, in a Eausua hotel room, at which time, McCarthy and McMahon engaged in illicit acts with each other. </tt>McCarthy briefly considered filing a suit but took no action, because it would have meant testifying about his sexual predilections. Instead, he married his research assistant Jeannie Kerr and they adopted a baby girl.

[bluelang]

Lawdog, you just rocked my world. I used to hate him, but now that I know he was gay, I'm forced by the liberal agenda to take his side and defend his behavior.

Quandry!

[NJG8tor]

His lacky Ray Cohn was a known homosexual who eventually died of AIDs. They probably had sex.

[northgagator]

McCarthy was Gay?

Damn I thought that he got the name "Tail Gunner Joe" from his WWII experiences.

[rivergator]

The real irony is that . . . McCarthy was gay.

I always figured that all conservatives who railed against the other side were gay.

[QGator2414]

"unintentionally" as in indirectly

The irony continues...

As the white house directly promotes intolerance of the Biblical view on homosexuality. All while there was no reason to believe Giglio would have commented on the subject at the inauguration...

[QGator2414]

The real irony is that . . . McCarthy was gay.

:)

[wargunfan]

Why doesn't The Obama regime select a Muslim, transgender, lesbian, cross dressing mullah to give Obama the oath of office on a Qur'an. They are missing a great opportunity here.

[QGator2414]

Why doesn't The Obama regime select a Muslim, transgender, lesbian, cross dressing mullah to give Obama the oath of office on a Qur'an. They are missing a great opportunity here.

Can't find someone who meets those qualifications? :)

[oragator1]

The irony continues...

As the white house directly promotes intolerance of the Biblical view on homosexuality. All while there was no reason to believe Giglio would have commented on the subject at the inauguration...

That argument is like saying Truman promoted intolerance of the southern way of life when he integrated the military.

[QGator2414]

That argument is like saying Truman promoted intolerance of the southern way of life when he integrated the military.

Intolerance amoung races exists today...Sadly

[oragator1]

Intolerance amoung races exists today...Sadly

I agree, and its not all a one way street.
My point was that justifying the idea of telling another group they can't have the same rights as you under the guise of social structure generally is a losing argument. That argument has already been lost on women, race, disabilities among many other issues and will be lost here too. It is seen as discrimination, even if it's under the umbrella of religion.
So to make the argument that the person telling someone else what they should and shouldn't be able to do from their safe perch holding all the rights they are wanting to deny someone else as the person being discriminated against, rings hollow.

[ChartsandGrafs]

The real irony is that . . . McCarthy was gay.

No. Evidence.

[bluelang]

No. Evidence.

You?! YOU calling for evidence?

Follow the money and stop being so brainwashed by the government.

[northgagator]

The irony of this thread is that with the fall of the USSR documents from the KGB and other Soviet agencies that McCarthy did have some accuracy in identifying members of the Communist Party. Please note that many members of the Communist party were active agents reporting back to Moscow or were dupes unknowingly reporting to Moscow.

Intersecting dude note: Much was written how secretive and secured the Manhattan Project was conducted. Actually Stalin had a very good pipeline of info coming to him http://mobile.usnews.com/news/national/articles/2009/01/02/new-evidence-of-a-soviet-spy-in-the-us-nuclear-program

I am not defending McCarthy.
Where McCarthy went wrong was that he labeled all Communist as un-American. Back before 1950 many Americans joined the American (or similar) Communist Party. Mainly out of political/social/economic beliefs and not as allegiance to the USSR. I do not agree with these people but not all if them were traitors.

[Lawdog88]

No. Evidence.


Only. Stories. About. Him. Being. Queer (What. It. Was. Called. In. Those. Days.)

Other. Than. That.

Nothing.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

I always figured that all conservatives who railed against the other side were gay.

McCarthy "railed" against gays?

When, where and how?

[rivergator]

I am not defending McCarthy.
Where McCarthy went wrong was that he labeled all Communist as un-American. Back before 1950 many Americans joined the American (or similar) Communist Party. Mainly out of political/social/economic beliefs and not as allegiance to the USSR. I do not agree with these people but not all if them were traitors.

Excellent point. I've tried to explain that here before. Pete Seeger is a perfect example. He joined the Communist Party before WWII because, as he put it, "It's for labor unions and against racism. I'm for labor unions and against racism ..."

[Dreamliner]

Nothing has changed in America. going back to the 1700's Alexis de Touqueville remarked on how Americans were worse than any he'd seen at ostracizing others over beliefs.

[OaktownGator]

The irony of this thread is that with the fall of the USSR documents from the KGB and other Soviet agencies that McCarthy did have some accuracy in identifying members of the Communist Party. Please note that many members of the Communist party were active agents reporting back to Moscow or were dupes unknowingly reporting to Moscow.

Intersecting dude note: Much was written how secretive and secured the Manhattan Project was conducted. Actually Stalin had a very good pipeline of info coming to him http://mobile.usnews.com/news/national/articles/2009/01/02/new-evidence-of-a-soviet-spy-in-the-us-nuclear-program

I am not defending McCarthy.
Where McCarthy went wrong was that he labeled all Communist as un-American. Back before 1950 many Americans joined the American (or similar) Communist Party. Mainly out of political/social/economic beliefs and not as allegiance to the USSR. I do not agree with these people but not all if them were traitors.
Very well put, northga.

Bottom line - if somebody is engaged in illegal, traitorous behavior, they should be investigated and prosecuted for it. But being a communist (or any other group) in and of itself doesn't qualify.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Only. Stories. About. Him. Being. Queer (What. It. Was. Called. In. Those. Days.)

Other. Than. That.

Nothing.

Indeed. That's how Leftists and communist sympathizers used to discredit and marginalize people back then. All they had to do was claim they heard "rumors". They didn't have to put forth any evidence, just "rumors". A media circus would have ensued if McCarthy attempted to defend himself from the allegations, and more people would have been introduced to the rumors, so he left it alone.

Maybe McCarthy was gay, but there's no supporting evidence to make the claim as if he truly was and it was open knowledge.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Where McCarthy went wrong was that he labeled all Communist as un-American. Back before 1950 many Americans joined the American (or similar) Communist Party. Mainly out of political/social/economic beliefs and not as allegiance to the USSR. I do not agree with these people but not all if them were traitors.

McCarthy was introduced to evidence from the FBI that indicated that the U.S. government had fallen victim to a conspiracy so large, so totally gigantic, that he felt a duty to warn the American people about it. And yes, this conspiracy was very real.

I suspect McCarthy initially thought that his warnings about this conspiracy would be welcomed by the press and the American people, and that many in government would support him once he came forward. Instead, he was shocked and devastated to find that the press seemed to be covering up for the conspiracy, and that the American people were largely disinterested in what he had to say (mostly because of the way the media mocked the warnings).

So McCarthy stepped up his attempts to warn the American people by becoming increasingly more vocal and reckless in attempting to draw attention to what he was saying. I liken his reaction to that of a person seeing a building on fire and rushing inside to warn the occupants, only to find that they don't believe him or refuse to pay attention. He simply couldn't believe the reaction he got. He was stupefied by it. He didn't know what to do.

This is what McCarthy is remembered and criticized for. Because he tried too hard and used aggressive tactics to wake the people from their slumber. He leveled accusations and questioned the wrong people. He basically jumped up and down like a maniac trying to get the message out. Nobody remembers the fact that he risked his life and career to warn the people about infiltration of their government. All they remember is his tactics.

[Lawdog88]

Indeed. That's how Leftists and communist sympathizers used to discredit and marginalize people back then. All they had to do was claim they heard "rumors". They didn't have to put forth any evidence, just "rumors". A media circus would have ensued if McCarthy attempted to defend himself from the allegations, and more people would have been introduced to the rumors, so he left it alone.

Maybe McCarthy was gay, but there's no supporting evidence to make the claim as if he truly was and it was open knowledge.


Oh, sorry. I thought that was what HE was doing.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Oh, sorry. I thought that was what HE was doing.

Not really. McCarthy was actually trying to warn the American people about something real, while his opponents were just trying to get him to shut up about it and go away.

Perhaps you can see the difference?

[oragator1]

Not really. McCarthy was actually trying to warn the American people about something real, while his opponents were just trying to get him to shut up about it and go away.

Perhaps you can see the difference?

Seriously, take an objective look at some of the things he did, particularly to guys like Drew Pearson (a reporter he attacked from the senate floor 7 times) Robert La Follette who he literally drove to suicide through false accusations, as well as getting Raymond Graham Swing fired from his job at the VOA for questioning him, among many many others.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAmccarthy.htm

One other note on his supposed homosexuality, this is in there too:

For some time opponents of McCarthy had been accumulating evidence concerning his homosexual activities. Several members of his staff, including Roy Cohn and David Schine, were also suspected of having a sexual relationship. Although well-known by political journalists, the first article about it did not appear until Hank Greenspun published an article in the Las Vegas Sun in 25th October, 1952. Greenspun wrote that: "It is common talk among homosexuals in Milwaukee who rendezvous in the White Horse Inn that Senator Joe McCarthy has often engaged in homosexual activities."
McCarthy considered a libel suit against Greenspun but decided against it when he was told by his lawyers that if the case went ahead he would have to take the witness stand and answer questions about his sexuality.

My honest take on McCarthy is that he was power hungry. At some point he might have convinced himself about a communist threat, but his motivation was personal not altruistic.

[Lawdog88]

Not really. McCarthy was actually trying to warn the American people about something real, while his opponents were just trying to get him to shut up about it and go away.

Perhaps you can see the difference?


Communists in America ??? Next thing you are going to tell me is that Communists stole atomic secrets. :laugh:

[ChartsandGrafs]

Seriously, take an objective look at some of the things he did, particularly to guys like Drew Pearson (a reporter he attacked from the senate floor 7 times) Robert La Follette who he literally drove to suicide through false accusations, as well as getting Raymond Graham Swing fired from his job at the VOA for questioning him, among many many others.

I have taken an objective look, and believe history got it all wrong.

The link you provided is entertaining, but not entirely accurate, and McCarthy certainly wasn't in any way responsible for La Follette's suicide. That's just another smear job.

Here's a much better link on the real McCarthy story:

http://www.knology.net/~bilrum/mccarthy.htm

One other note on his supposed homosexuality, this is in there too.

Still no evidence, just unsupported rumor and conjecture.

My honest take on McCarthy is that he was power hungry. At some point he might have convinced himself about a communist threat, but his motivation was personal not altruistic.

If McCarthy was truly power hungry, he wouldn't have opposed either the Establishment or the communist conspiracy, he would have jumped in bed with them and kept his mouth shut like most other politicians. But he didn't. Instead, he literally destroyed himself to expose the conspiracy.

Sorry, but you've been duped.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Communists in America ??? Next thing you are going to tell me is that Communists stole atomic secrets. :laugh:

LOL, yes, communist infiltration of government! LOL! Hilarious! And we wonder why that same government is now trying to disarm us? LOL!

Derp?

[oragator1]

I have taken an objective look, and believe history got it all wrong.

The link you provided is entertaining, but not entirely accurate, and McCarthy certainly wasn't in any way responsible for La Follette's suicide. That's just another smear job.

Here's a much better link on the real McCarthy story:

http://www.knology.net/~bilrum/mccarthy.htm



Still no evidence, just unsupported rumor and conjecture.



If McCarthy was truly power hungry, he wouldn't have opposed either the Establishment or the communist conspiracy, he would have jumped in bed with them and kept his mouth shut like most other politicians. But he didn't. Instead, he literally destroyed himself to expose the conspiracy.

Sorry, but you've been duped.

Nahh, not duped. But defend him all day, he was a drunk, power hungry liar. He lied about the number of missions he flew, he lied about how he got his war wound, he lied about LaFollette to win his seat, he lied about the communist numbers at State, he did attack those who disagreed with him and used his power to tear people down. . That isn't refutable.
If you want to lionize a guy like that feel free, but he was a danger to this country even if a few communist infiltrators were a threat at the time.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Nahh, not duped. But defend him all day, he was a drunk, power hungry liar. He lied about the number of missions he flew, he lied about how he got his war wound, he lied about LaFollette to win his seat, he lied about the communist numbers at State, he did attack those who disagreed with him and used his power to tear people down. . That isn't refutable.

Sure it is. It's all refutable. You're basically just repeating the lies you've heard.

If you want to lionize a guy like that feel free, but he was a danger to this country even if a few communist infiltrators were a threat at the time.

Thanks, I will. Also, feel free to ignore the communist infiltration and subversion of your entire government to instead focus your limited attention on the drinking and sexual escapades of the guy trying to warn you about it. That makes a lot of sense.

What else should we expect from the Desperate Housewives generation?

[oragator1]

Sure it is. It's all refutable. You're basically just repeating the lies you've heard.

Thanks, I will. Also, feel free to ignore the communist infiltration and subversion of your entire government to instead focus your limited attention on the drinking and sexual escapades of the guy trying to warn you about it. That makes a lot of sense.

What else should we expect from the Desperate Housewives generation?

Where did I ignore it? I specifically said there were probably communist spies but that McCarthy wasn't good for the country regardless.
I never claimed he was gay either, I only provided the two paragraphs as info, I didn't even comment on it in my post or follow it up.
But I do find it ironic that you say attacking someone on that basis is unfair, since McCarthy would accuse people of sexual dereliction when he couldn't get them for communism, like basically accusing Benton of peddling in porn. His multiple stories about his war wounds are a matter of record with eye witness testimony at the time, his lying about how many missions he flew is a matter of record, his destruction of innocent people is a matter of record, and the fear many people in the media held over his power is well documented - he was powerful enough to stifle free speech. If you honestly believe all of that is made up then there probably isn't much more to talk about.

[ChartsandGrafs]

But I do find it ironic that you say attacking someone on that basis is unfair, since McCarthy would accuse people of sexual dereliction when he couldn't get them for communism, like basically accusing Benton of peddling in porn. His multiple stories about his war wounds are a matter of record with eye witness testimony at the time, his lying about how many missions he flew is a matter of record, his destruction of innocent people is a matter of record, and the fear many people in the media held over his power is well documented - he was powerful enough to stifle free speech. If you honestly believe all of that is made up then there probably isn't much more to talk about.

LOL, "documented".

You're probably right, there isn't much to talk about. It's a waste of time.

[Minister_of_Information]

The infiltration of leftist groups by Soviet agents is a history that is both deliberately cryptic and probably also overblown within the popular imagination. Yes they were there, and yes they took cues and even orders from the Soviets, but the vast majority of the left that they were attempting to influence is not and never has been authoritarian.

[rivergator]

Not really. McCarthy was actually trying to warn the American people about something real, while his opponents were just trying to get him to shut up about it and go away.

Perhaps you can see the difference?

Someone who complains constantly about invisible govt conspiracies is really trying to defend McCarthy?
What is this, the Onion?

[ChartsandGrafs]

Someone who complains constantly about invisible govt conspiracies is really trying to defend McCarthy?
What is this, the Onion?

LOL, "invisible".

Only for those who are either uninformed or bury their heads in the sand of blind, government worship.

[ChartsandGrafs]

The infiltration of leftist groups by Soviet agents is a history that is both deliberately cryptic and probably also overblown within the popular imagination. Yes they were there, and yes they took cues and even orders from the Soviets, but the vast majority of the left that they were attempting to influence is not and never has been authoritarian.

I'm not sure what you mean by, "infiltration of leftist groups". Leftist groups?

Were you not aware that Soviet agents had infiltrated our State Department and were working at the highest levels of our government?

[rivergator]

LOL, "invisible".

Only for those who are either uninformed or bury their heads in the sand of blind, government worship.


Yes, invisible. Every one of your explanations has been "just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there ..."
Meanwhile, you've got McCarthy running roughshod over the rights of American citizens who have done nothing wrong. And you defend it.
Kind of makes your anti-govt rants look a bit ridiculous, don't you think?

[Minister_of_Information]

I'm not sure what you mean by, "infiltration of leftist groups". Leftist groups?

Were you not aware that Soviet agents had infiltrated our State Department and were working at the highest levels of our government?

You referring to the Hiss case? Yes, of course, and the Rosenbergs were convicted of treason for handing over atomic secrets and executed. It happened but reactionaries attempt thereby to paint the Roosevelt/Truman administrations as tantamount to a communist front through negligence or dupery. But the government was never very infiltrated, at least not nearly as much as some social movements, but even that is relatively trivial. As I said, it is a history that the left tries to obscure but that doesn't make it excessively important. If no Soviet agent had ever existed in the US, the left would still pretty much be the left as we know them. It's not like the Soviets ginned up a lot of political strife in the US that wouldn't have otherwise existed.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Yes, invisible. Every one of your explanations has been "just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there ..."
Meanwhile, you've got McCarthy running roughshod over the rights of American citizens who have done nothing wrong. And you defend it.
Kind of makes your anti-govt rants look a bit ridiculous, don't you think?

Not really, no. But what rights did McCarthy supposedly violate, exactly?

Sorry, but the Venona decrypts prove that this conspiracy existed. You can whine about it and try to deflect, but the facts still remain facts.

[ChartsandGrafs]

You referring to the Hiss case? Yes, of course, and the Rosenbergs were convicted of treason for handing over atomic secrets and executed.

This went much deeper than just Hiss and the Rosenbergs.

It happened but reactionaries attempt thereby to paint the Roosevelt/Truman administrations as tantamount to a communist front through negligence or dupery. But the government was never very infiltrated, at least not nearly as much as some social movements, but even that is relatively trivial.

Just out of curiosity, what do you base this on? You don't find it interesting the way the Soviet-infiltrated Truman administration stood by and watched China fall to the communists, an outcome which might have been preventable?

As I said, it is a history that the left tries to obscure but that doesn't make it excessively important.

Multiple Soviet agents working in our government, especially in our State Department and helping to influence and shape our foreign policy, is hardly what I'd describe as unimportant. It becomes even more important with the way our government tried to circle the wagons when McCarthy started sounding the alarm.

[Minister_of_Information]

This is interesting. The anti-statist appears to be advocating foreign adventurism retrospectively.

Failures in policy were the product of miscalculation rather than being duped into acting against the national interest. I'm curious what you think the US could or should have done about China? Invade like we invaded Russia after WWI? The WWII military apparatus was already dismantled and the Cold War had not yet begun in earnest.

There are some incidents where communist infiltration or sympathy frustrated US action especially during Vietnam, for instance the Son Tay raid, but these incidents were generally speaking isolated to the periphery.

[northgagator]

I'm not sure what you mean by, "infiltration of leftist groups". Leftist groups?

Were you not aware that Soviet agents had infiltrated our State Department and were working at the highest levels of our government?

The US was infiltrated by Soviet agents before WWII. This infiltration compromised the Manhattan Project, the US State Department, the defense contractors, and the White House.

The following is information on a little known project called Venona.
The Venona project was a long-running secret collaboration of the United States and United Kingdom intelligence agencies involving cryptanalysis of messages sent by intelligence agencies of the Soviet Union, the majority of them during World War II. At least 13 codewords for the project were used by American and British intelligence agencies, including the National Security Agency (NSA); "Venona", a term with no known meaning, was the last. (In the decrypted documents issued from the NSA, "VENONA" is written in capitals, but lowercase is common in modern journalism.) It was not until 1995 project materials were released by the U.S. government. Analysis supported some criminal spy cases, such as that against Julius Rosenberg for some of the charges, but cast doubt on the case against his wife Ethel Rosenberg..,,,,,
Most decipherable messages were transmitted and intercepted between 1942 and 1945. Sometime in 1945, the existence of the Venona program was revealed to the Soviet Union by the NKVD agent and United States Army SIGINT analyst and cryptologist Bill Weisband.[1] These messages were slowly and gradually decrypted beginning in 1946 and continuing (many times at a low-level of effort in the latter years) through 1980,...
Venona has added information&mdash;some unequivocal, some ambiguous&mdash;to several espionage cases. Some known spies, including Theodore Hall, were neither prosecuted nor publicly implicated, because the Venona evidence against them was not made public.
.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/h/haynes-venona.html

The Manhattan Project Infiltration:

Wisconsin Senator Joseph McCarthy might have been wrong about virtually every specific charge he ever made about Communist subversion in the West (including the existence of his infamous "list of names"). But he was right about one thing: Communist agents had penetrated the West's most sensitive scientific and political institutions....
"We now know the project was so effectively infiltrated by Soviet agents that the KGB was often able to double- or triple-check the results of atomic experiments performed at Los Alamos. In fact, Joseph Stalin knew of the bomb's existence long before even Harry Truman was informed."....
Nor did the leaks end in the 1940s. As late as 1970, according to Christopher Andrew's book, The Mitrokhin Archive, 70% of Warsaw Pact weaponry was based on Western technology.....
Documents from previously secret KGB and FBI files largely confirm our worst fears. We now have overwhelming evidence that senior American diplomat Alger Hiss provided classified secrets to his Soviet handlers throughout the 1930s and 1940s. We also know that Harry Dexter White, assistant secretary of the U.S. Treasury, whispered details of U.S. negotiating strategies to his Soviet handlers. White informed the KGB in 1945, for instance, that the U.S. would agree to the Soviet seizure of the Baltic states --


List of KGB spies I. The US from 1920's to the end of the Cold War
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soviet_agents_in_the_United_States

[ChartsandGrafs]

This is interesting. The anti-statist appears to be advocating foreign adventurism retrospectively.

Not really. You're mistaking my critique of the historical narrative with advocacy. I'm not sure what purpose that serves.

Failures in policy were the product of miscalculation rather than being duped into acting against the national interest.

Right, everything in politics is just a big accident or miscalculation. Nobody ever means for anything to happen. It's always mere happenstance.

I'm curious what you think the US could or should have done about China? Invade like we invaded Russia after WWI?

We were awash in military equipment and resources following WW2. If we were truly opposed to the spread of communism, as the American people were led to believe at that time, we could have easily done a better job of supporting the Chinese Nationalists. We didn't, at all. We simply stood by and watched the communists take over.

I see no reason to believe this was an "accident". In hindsight, our government's actions in 1949 appear to be quite deliberate.

There are some incidents where communist infiltration or sympathy frustrated US action especially during Vietnam, for instance the Son Tay raid, but these incidents were generally speaking isolated to the periphery.

How would you know, exactly? Our government was infiltrated by Soviet agents, and nothing official or comprehensive was ever done to reverse the infiltration. McCarthy's efforts accomplished little more than letting people know that it had happened.

How do you know communist infiltrators didn't have a hand in shaping Cold War policy for far longer than is currently recognized?

[ChartsandGrafs]

The US was infiltrated by Soviet agents before WWII. This infiltration compromised the Manhattan Project, the US State Department, the defense contractors, and the White House.

The following is information on a little known project called Venona.

You're preaching to the choir, man.

I already brought Venona into this.

[Minister_of_Information]

Not really. You're mistaking my critique of the historical narrative with advocacy. I'm not sure what purpose that serves.

Right, everything in politics is just a big accident or miscalculation. Nobody ever means for anything to happen. It's always mere happenstance.

We were awash in military equipment and resources following WW2. If we were truly opposed to the spread of communism, as the American people were led to believe at that time, we could have easily done a better job of supporting the Chinese Nationalists. We didn't, at all. We simply stood by and watched the communists take over.

I see no reason to believe this was an "accident". In hindsight, our government's actions in 1949 appear to be quite deliberate.

How would you know, exactly? Our government was infiltrated by Soviet agents, and nothing official or comprehensive was ever done to reverse the infiltration. McCarthy's efforts accomplished little more than letting people know that it had happened.

How do you know communist infiltrators didn't have a hand in shaping Cold War policy for far longer than is currently recognized?

If you are criticizing a policy choice, then evidently you prefer an alternative course of action. And if you do not, what's the point of the critique in the first place?

I agree that these things happened, and that there is more to it than is made public, but your apparent implication that the fall of McCarthy turned the halls of government into a safe haven for Soviet infiltrators to run wild and mesmerize senior policy makers, I think that is a vast overstatement of whatever might be remotely possible. And J. Edgar Hoover was on the job anyway.

[ChartsandGrafs]

If you are criticizing a policy choice, then evidently you prefer an alternative course of action. And if you do not, what's the point of the critique in the first place?

Again, I'm critiquing the historical narrative. The government said X (we oppose communism!) but then in the case of China, did Y (stood by watching as China was overrun).

I believe this is worth discussing along with the potential motivations involved.

I agree that these things happened, and that there is more to it than is made public, but your apparent implication that the fall of McCarthy turned the halls of government into a safe haven for Soviet infiltrators to run wild and mesmerize senior policy makers, I think that is a vast overstatement of whatever might be remotely possible.

No, the fall of McCarthy had nothing to do with it. This infiltration and conspiracy was already in motion before McCarthy said a peep, and it didn't just disappear when McCarthy died.

Again, nothing was ever done to flush the infiltration out of our government. McCarthy's failed attempt only served to identify and root out a few people, but the larger infiltration continued, indefinitely.

And J. Edgar Hoover was on the job anyway.

Hoover was powerless to do anything significant about what he was up against, and he knew it.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rivergator

[quote]I always figured that all conservatives who railed against the other side were gay.


McCarthy "railed" against gays?
When, where and how?

************************************************** *******

BTTT for river

[Dreamliner]

Who didn't rail against gays back then ? The real McCarthyism these days is if you say anything bad about gays.

[OaktownGator]

Who didn't rail against gays back then ? The real McCarthyism these days is if you say anything bad about gays.
So, he'd be a folk hero these days? :joecool:

[Lawdog88]

So, he'd be a folk hero these days? :joecool:


Or perhaps, a birther ?

[108]

The irony continues...

As the white house directly promotes intolerance of the Biblical view on homosexuality. All while there was no reason to believe Giglio would have commented on the subject at the inauguration...

one can tolerate the Biblical belief system, but as a representative of the people, not tolerate discrimination of one's citizens

separation of Church and State

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

one can tolerate the Biblical belief system, but as a representative of the people, not tolerate discrimination of one's citizens

separation of Church and State

It is less of a church and state issue and more of a human rights issue.

Do we condone infidelity? Most people do not, but some do not find anything wrong with it. Do we wish to legislate infidelity? No. Is infidelity a reason to vote for or against a political figure? Perhaps. For some it is.

Gay behavior falls in the same realm, imo.

[OaktownGator]

Little known fact... while McCarthy was young he had a terrible optical condition; as a result, he could only see the color red.