Your MLB Hall of Fame ballot

[Wuerffel5220]

The baseball HOF class will be announced this Wed, and despite some big time names, there may not be a single player inducted. Voters are allowed up to 10 names on their ballot. Many will vote for no one they even think may have thought about steroids one time back in 7th grade. I personally think you need to take the PED's into context. If a player went from good to great because they took or may have taken PED's, probably not worthy. If they went from All-Star to maybe greatest of all time, I have no problem putting them in, since they played against likely PED users as well. Know that's a grey area. Remember, the HOF is a museum. Put the guys who played best in and make a mention on their plaque or something. Anyway here is my list

Barry Bonds- greatest player of his generation, was a Hall of Famer before any alleged use.

Roger Clemens- same argument. 7 Cy Youngs, 4 of which were before any PED accusations.

Craig Biggio- One of the best statistical players of any 2nd baseman to ever play. 3000+ hits, Most doubles of any right handed hitter ever

Mike Piazza- greatest hitting catcher in the last 30 years, if not ever. Never in any of the main discussions of potential steroid users. It wouldn't shock me if any player in the era was proved to have done them (Jeter would be the saddest), but not gonna exclude a guy with no evidence whatsoever.

Jeff Bagwell- One of the best 1st baseman of his era. Only 1st baseman with 400 HR/200 steals, MVP, Gold Glove, Rookie of the Year. Same PED suspicion logic with Piazza. Big guy, played with admitted user Ken Caminiti, but no proof at all.

Tim Raines- 2600 hits, 4th most stolen bases of all time, 39th in baseball history in runs scored, 53rd of all time in on base percentage

Curt Schilling- My last player, was not quite sure, but argument made by Jayson Stark of ESPN convinced me: http://espn.go.com/mlb/hof13/story/_/id/8814530/jayson-stark-mlb-hall-fame-ballot

Thought of him as a very good, but not great pitcher with a great postseason record, like Jack Morris. But while Morris has more Wins and Complete Games, Schilling has a significantly lower ERA, a significantly better K to walk ratio and 700 more strikeouts in 600 less innings.



Did not vote for:
Sammy Sosa- In the group where PED's/suspicion just played too much of a role, while he had a tremendous peak (3 60 HR seasons), the other numbers aren't extraordinary and the peak was too short

Jack Morris- Hall of Very Good. Can't justify a 3.90 ERA in the era of down offense right before PED's.

Dale Murphy- A good player, 398 HR's, a solid peak, but career numbers just not enough and his highest statistical rank in history is 19th, for strikeouts.

Mark McGwire- Has asked not to be considered.

Rafael Palmeiro- You get caught for PED's after they start testing, when you know it's punishable, you are out in my book.

Edgar Martinez- Great DH, won't hold the DH only against him, but just not a long enough career of excellence.

Larry Walker- Very good but not Hall of Fame level. Similar career comps are Ellis Burks and Scott Rolen. Good players, not HOF'ers.

[Sylez_G_Koolaid]

The Crime Dog should've roided. He'd be in for sure. Instead, he's just got really really good numbers in the Roid Era, bro.

They should put Bonds' hat from his Pirates days in there along with his hat from this Giants days, just so people can see the diff.

[Wuerffel5220]

The Crime Dog should've roided. He'd be in for sure. Instead, he's just got really really good numbers in the Roid Era, bro.

They should put Bonds' hat from his Pirates days in there along with his hat from this Giants days, just so people can see the diff.

True dat. Have mcgriff in the next group below the guys I mentioned

[gatorknights]

Barry Bonds- greatest player of his generation, was a Hall of Famer before any alleged use.

Roger Clemens- same argument. 7 Cy Youngs, 4 of which were before any PED accusations.

Craig Biggio- One of the best statistical players of any 2nd baseman to ever play. 3000+ hits, Most doubles of any right handed hitter ever

Mike Piazza- greatest hitting catcher in the last 30 years, if not ever. Never in any of the main discussions of potential steroid users. It wouldn't shock me if any player in the era was proved to have done them (Jeter would be the saddest), but not gonna exclude a guy with no evidence whatsoever.

Jeff Bagwell- One of the best 1st baseman of his era. Only 1st baseman with 400 HR/200 steals, MVP, Gold Glove, Rookie of the Year. Same PED suspicion logic with Piazza. Big guy, played with admitted user Ken Caminiti, but no proof at all.

Tim Raines- 2600 hits, 4th most stolen bases of all time, 39th in baseball history in runs scored, 53rd of all time in on base percentage

Curt Schilling- My last player, was not quite sure, but argument made by Jayson Stark of ESPN convinced me: http://espn.go.com/mlb/hof13/story/_/id/8814530/jayson-stark-mlb-hall-fame-ballot

Thought of him as a very good, but not great pitcher with a great postseason record, like Jack Morris. But while Morris has more Wins and Complete Games, Schilling has a significantly lower ERA, a significantly better K to walk ratio and 700 more strikeouts in 600 less innings.

I agree with your list, but I would throw Jack Morris on the basis of the 7th game of the 91 World Series alone. 10 inning complete game shutout. It was brilliant.

[99gator]

i agree with your list, but i think jack morris was a hall of famer as well.

classic example of a guy who might play his way out of the hall of fame because he played too long, posting a 6.19 era at 38 and a 5.60 era at 39

[Sylez_G_Koolaid]

I liked this guy's ballot.

Craig Biggio: The only player in history with at least 3,000 hits, 600 doubles, 400 stolen bases and 250 home runs was a unique blend of power and speed who also excelled at two positions – second base and catcher. A no-brainer.

Mike Piazza: In my opinion, the best offensive catcher in baseball history with 427 homers and 1,335 RBIs while also compiling a career batting average of .308. He finished in the top 10 in NL MVP voting seven times and was an All-Star in 12 of his 16 seasons.

Fred McGriff: One of the top power hitters in his time with 493 homers and 1,550 RBIs. He slammed 30 or more HR’s in 10 seasons, including seven in a row, and drove in more than 100 runs eight times. He finished in the top 10 in MVP voting six times.

Lee Smith: Ranks third in history behind Mariano Rivera and Trevor Hoffman with 478 saves and one of only five pitchers with more than 400. He was the model of consistency and durability, compiling 13 straight 20-plus save seasons and 11 30-plus save seasons. He also holds the NL career record for most consecutive errorless games by a pitcher at 546.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidlariviere/2012/12/20/craig-biggio-mike-piazza-fred-mcgriff-and-lee-smith-deserve-induction-into-baseballs-hall/

[Gatorsmob]

I agree with your list, but I would throw Jack Morris on the basis of the 7th game of the 91 World Series alone. 10 inning complete game shutout. It was brilliant.

Great performance but that doesn't justify putting him in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Otherwise there were many great performances by people nowhere near justifying putting them in the hall.

[FrankGator627]

Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens. No one else.

I believe the Hall of Fame is too watered down with great players. I think the HOF should be only for people that were the best player in their era.

[gtr2x]

Bonds even tho he was a total j/a$$.
Biggio, gotta vote for the little guy who could do it all.
Smith, dominating, consistent closer.

[helix139]

Piazza was a great offensive catcher but was barely passable defensively. Would his offensive stats have gotten him in at, say, DH or 1B? I say no. Defense matters.

I'd vote for Biggio. That guy was a flat ballplayer.

Schilling and Bagwell would get votes from me too. Sosa and Bonds also. And Lee Smith.

[Wuerffel5220]

Piazza was a great offensive catcher but was barely passable defensively. Would his offensive stats have gotten him in at, say, DH or 1B? I say no. Defense matters.

I'd vote for Biggio. That guy was a flat ballplayer.

Schilling and Bagwell would get votes from me too. Sosa and Bonds also. And Lee Smith.

Sosa was barely passable defensively, but I guess that doesn't matter as a RF, just as a catcher

[COGatorman]

I am not even sure why Jack Morris is even debatabable. He won more games in the 80's than any other pitchers. A DECADE for crying out loud! Frankly, I never liked the player, but owning a decade should be enough to get a pitcher in the HOF.

[helix139]

Sosa was barely passable defensively, but I guess that doesn't matter as a RF, just as a catcher

Sosa was above average with a plus arm in RF until he bulked up and screwed up his shoulder. From about 97 onward his defense went progressively downhill. Same thing happened to Bonds later in his career, but I think it was an elbow with Bonds. Either way, Sosa and Bonds' numbers were out of this world for any position. Piazza's were above average, but not great for any other position.

[JohnC1908]

Sosa was above average with a plus arm in RF until he bulked up and screwed up his shoulder. From about 97 onward his defense went progressively downhill. Same thing happened to Bonds later in his career, but I think it was an elbow with Bonds. Either way, Sosa and Bonds' numbers were out of this world for any position. Piazza's were above average, but not great for any other position.

Sosa was also a mental midget, constantly missing the cutoff man, throwing to the wrong base, etc.

[gatorknights]

Great performance but that doesn't justify putting him in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Otherwise there were many great performances by people nowhere near justifying putting them in the hall.


I agree, but I'm from Minnesota so I am completely biased lol. Seriously though, I believe he belongs in the hall based on his career accomplishments. For a long stretch he was the baddest pitcher in baseball.

[FrankGator627]

Pre-steroids...He was Sammy So-So

[Spurffelbow833]

I agree with your list, but I would throw Jack Morris on the basis of the 7th game of the 91 World Series alone. 10 inning complete game shutout. It was brilliant.

With an assist from Lonnie Smith's brilliant base running. There never would have been a game 7 without Smith's home runs in two other games, but the guy was always good for one egregious mental lapse per game.

[helix139]

Pre-steroids...He was Sammy So-So

He was a 30-30 guy pre-steroids

[gatorman_07732]

What is sick is they are allowing juicers and cheaters on the ballot and into the HOF but meanwhile Pete Rose gets the shaft who played the game as hard or harder than anyone

[helix139]

What is sick is they are allowing juicers and cheaters on the ballot and into the HOF but meanwhile Pete Rose gets the shaft who played the game as hard or harder than anyone

I do agree with this. Rose should be let in at least as a player.

[og8trz]

I am a hard liner who believes Rose's lifetime ban should be just that. I would never let him in, he broke the code and bet on games that he may well have tried to alter the outcome to benefit his wallet instead of the integrity of the game. His stats unequivocaly put him in, but unfortunately he got too big for his britches.

As for the guys with the gaudy numbers from the roid era, I wouldn't let any of them in. If they weren't roid heads, they should have turned in the cheaters.

They have cheapened the HOF by letting guys in who won 300 games by winning 15 for 20 years who were never dominant. They have let good players in instead of great ones. That neds to stop. If you don't have any worthy candidates, just hold a celebration with no induction.
Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa should never get in and probably not McGwire. The only hesitation I have on McGwire is he hit a legit 49 HR's his rookie year and took off games at the end to see his son born. But if I have to sacrifice him to keep the cheaters out, I would.

[Wuerffel5220]

It's widely reported and accepted that Bonds only took because he saw how much love and praise Sosa and McGwire were getting during the summer of 98 and was jealous that he didn't get near as much praise despite being a superior natural talent

[gatorman_07732]

I am a hard liner who believes Rose's lifetime ban should be just that. I would never let him in, he broke the code and bet on games that he may well have tried to alter the outcome to benefit his wallet instead of the integrity of the game. His stats unequivocaly put him in, but unfortunately he got too big for his britches.

As for the guys with the gaudy numbers from the roid era, I wouldn't let any of them in. If they weren't roid heads, they should have turned in the cheaters.

They have cheapened the HOF by letting guys in who won 300 games by winning 15 for 20 years who were never dominant. They have let good players in instead of great ones. That neds to stop. If you don't have any worthy candidates, just hold a celebration with no induction.
Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa should never get in and probably not McGwire. The only hesitation I have on McGwire is he hit a legit 49 HR's his rookie year and took off games at the end to see his son born. But if I have to sacrifice him to keep the cheaters out, I would.

He should be let in as a player. For the life of me I don't see how Bonds, Clemens and other can be considered and Pete Rose not. Those guys would not even have the same numbers without being chemically induced, so to that regard they are fake.
No one could exceed the passion of the game that Pete Rose had as a player.

[FrankGator627]

Just announced, no one got in.

[og8trz]

Jack Morris was a dominant pitcher over a long span, but one game is not what the HOF is about, otherwise Don Larsen is in & every hitter who ever had 4 homers in a game

[Wuerffel5220]

Really dissapointed for Craig Biggio, who I don't see any reason to have not gotten in, and an embarrassment for the Hall itself, which is a museum and really relies on the tourism and publicity it gets each year.

Sorry for Dale Murphy's family who pushed for him to get in, although as I mentioned I didn't feel he deserved to get in.

Ballot is only going to get tougher going forward with only 10 spots and Greg Maddux, Frank Thomas, Jeff Kent, Tom Glavine and Mike Mussina on the ballot next year. Jack Morris will be in his last year on the ballot.

2015 brings Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez as locks, John Smoltz a near lock, and Gary Sheffield as another big stat, PED question mark. Nomar will be on too, but see him as a guy with too short of a peak.

[Wuerffel5220]

My 2014 ballot

Greg Maddux
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Frank Thomas
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
Tom Glavine
Jeff Bagwell
Tim Raines
Jeff Kent

I'll have to leave Schilling off and Mussina who'd I'd give alot of consideration to with 270 wins and the 15th best winning percentage since 1950, but no Cy Youngs or No Hitters, though he came close

In 2015, assuming "clean" Maddux, Glavine and Thomas get in and no one else, I'd just replace those 3 on my ballot with Johnson, Pedro and Smoltz. Still leave those other 2 off. And I'm a keep the HOF smaller rather than larger guy. That I'd vote for 12 guys just is shocking to me, but speaks to that a few of these guys should be in already.

[ArtVandelay]

I think the Hall of Fame is a joke these days. The players are on the ballot way too long. There is no reason to be on the ballot for so long. The stats are the stats. You are either Hall of Fame worthy or you aren't...

[Wuerffel5220]

Just for reference for those who would vote for Morris in his last year on the ballot: Jack Morris vs Mike Mussina

Games pitched and innings pitched were about even

Wins- Mussina 270 Morris 254
Record- Mussina 270-153 Morris 254-186
ERA- Mussina 3.68 Morris 3.98
(Mussina pitched in the "Steroid Era, Morris in an era geared toward pitching)
Mussina had 350 more strikeouts, 600 less walks and 130 less wild pitches

The ONLY category Morris really beats Mussina in is Complete Games, by a wide margin, 175-57. Neither won a Cy Young, Mussina finished 2nd and Morris finished 3rd twice

So there is no way to justify putting Morris in over Mussina. You could put in both, but there won't be enough of those to get Morris in.

[Wuerffel5220]

I think the Hall of Fame is a joke these days. The players are on the ballot way too long. There is no reason to be on the ballot for so long. The stats are the stats. You are either Hall of Fame worthy or you aren't...

I agree. Only reason I'd give it multiple years is for the numbers crunch I mentioned earlier. Even still I'd take it down to 7 years. Still enough time to analyze a player's career with new data, but many writers now haven't ever seen the players they're voting for in Year 14/15.

Also hate the people who won't for anyone on the first ballot because "Babe Ruth wasn't a unanimous first ballot guy"

[madgator]

Mike Piazza is probably the best offensive catcher ever to play the game. Has never been implicated in any issues steroids or otherwise and he only gets 57% of the vote!

that's crap!


if one of the best ever to play the position isn't a first ballot guy, then who is?


and I consider myself a hard-liner when it comes to eligibility.

[FrankGator627]

Really dissapointed for Craig Biggio, who I don't see any reason to have not gotten in, and an embarrassment for the Hall itself, which is a museum and really relies on the tourism and publicity it gets each year.

Sorry for Dale Murphy's family who pushed for him to get in, although as I mentioned I didn't feel he deserved to get in.

Ballot is only going to get tougher going forward with only 10 spots and Greg Maddux, Frank Thomas, Jeff Kent, Tom Glavine and Mike Mussina on the ballot next year. Jack Morris will be in his last year on the ballot.

2015 brings Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez as locks, John Smoltz a near lock, and Gary Sheffield as another big stat, PED question mark. Nomar will be on too, but see him as a guy with too short of a peak.

Biggio shouldn't be a HOFer. Being above average for a long time shouldn't make you a HOF.

I agree on Pedro but he's borderline due to a short career.

[Wuerffel5220]

Biggio shouldn't be a HOFer. Being above average for a long time shouldn't make you a HOF.

I agree on Pedro but he's borderline due to a short career.

6 All star games, historically top 5 in runs, top 14 in runs, 3000 hits, 414 SB, 291 HR from a 2nd baseman is good enough for me. I'd think position has to play a part, I'd agree I'd be wavering if he were an outfielder or 1st baseman

[99gator]

so, let's get this straight. people not in the hall of fame.

all time home run leader
all time hits leader
pitcher with the most cy youngs
greatest hitting catcher of all time

etc, etc, etc.

i agree completely with the jayson stark article. at some point, righteous indignation reaches a point where everyone begins to live a lie. this era of baseball happened. you can't pretend it did not happen. you can't eliminate the greatest players from that era as if the game did not exist. i also don't presume that people prior to this era were pure as the wind driven snow.

[Wuerffel5220]

so, let's get this straight. people not in the hall of fame.

all time home run leader
all time hits leader
pitcher with the most cy youngs
greatest hitting catcher of all time

etc, etc, etc.

i agree completely with the jayson stark article. at some point, righteous indignation reaches a point where everyone begins to live a lie. this era of baseball happened. you can't pretend it did not happen. you can't eliminate the greatest players from that era as if the game did not exist. i also don't presume that people prior to this era were pure as the wind driven snow.

Correct, we could make some good money starting a competing HOF

[JohnC1908]

Mike Piazza is probably the best offensive catcher ever to play the game. Has never been implicated in any issues steroids or otherwise and he only gets 57% of the vote!

that's crap!

if one of the best ever to play the position isn't a first ballot guy, then who is?

and I consider myself a hard-liner when it comes to eligibility.

Argument would be he had no business playing the position.

[Gatorsmob]

Argument would be he had no business playing the position.

But you can't argue that he did play the position and no other catcher put up the offensive numbers he did. There is a reason catchers don't put up huge offensive numbers year after year because of the wear and tear put on your body day in and day out.

[oldgator]

I suggest you ALL should look up the criteria the baseball writers are
supposed to consider when voting for HOF inductees. It includes stats.
But also includes a lot more. First portion I highlighted sets as a
criteria that a candidate for HOF must have played at least
10 seasons in MLB. This to me points to an attitude among
the founders of the HOF that they consider true greats do
it over a long career. This eliminates 'one hit wonders' from
consideration. It also points to their wanting the entire career
of a player considered, not just his 'clean' years

"Barry Bonds- greatest player of his generation, was a Hall of Famer before any alleged use.

Roger Clemens- same argument. 7 Cy Youngs, 4 of which were before any PED accusations."

the problem with the above argument is that the criteria for HOF is
to include the player's ENTIRE career....not just his 'clean' years
and ignore the rule breaking.

Shoeless Joe Jackson screwed up ONCE. According to some in
this thread he should be in the HOF based on his career up until
he F'd up. Same thing goes for Pete Rose.

here are the criteria from the HOF website---I've highlighted
criteria that seem to apply the most to this thread. And put in
bold type three criteria that folks on this board are either
unaware or don't give a sh#t about.

http://baseballhall.org/hall-famers/rules-election/bbwaa

"BBWAA ELECTION RULES

1. Authorization: By authorization of the Board of Directors
of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Inc., the Baseball
Writers' Association of America (BBWAA) is authorized to hold an
election every year for the purpose of electing members to the National
Baseball Hall of Fame from the ranks of retired baseball players.

2. Electors: Only active and honorary members of the Baseball Writers'
Association of America, who have been active baseball writers for at
least ten (10) years, shall be eligible to vote. They must have been
active as baseball writers and members of the Association for a
period beginning at least ten (10) years prior to the date of
election in which they are voting.

3. Eligible Candidates --
Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

A. A baseball player must have been active as a player
in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning
twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior
to election.

B. Player must have played in each of ten (10)
Major League championship seasons, some part of which
must have been within the period described in 3 (A).

C. Player shall have ceased to be an active player
in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years
preceding the election but may be otherwise connected
with baseball.

D. In case of the death of an active player or a
player who has been retired for less than five (5) full
years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be
eligible in the next regular election held at least six
(6) months after the date of death or after the end of
the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.

E. Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall
not be an eligible candidate.

4. Method of Election:

A. BBWAA Screening Committee — A Screening
Committee consisting of baseball writers will be appointed
by the BBWAA. This Screening Committee shall consist of six
members, with two members to be elected at each Annual
Meeting for a three-year term. The duty of the Screening
Committee shall be to prepare a ballot listing in
alphabetical order eligible candidates who (1) received
a vote on a minimum of five percent (5%) of the ballots
cast in the preceding election or (2) are eligible for
the first time and are nominated by any two of the six
members of the BBWAA Screening Committee.

B. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and
as many as ten (10) eligible candidates deemed worthy
of election. Write-in votes are not permitted.

C. Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five
percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to
membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon
the player's record, playing ability, integrity,
sportsmanship, character, and contributions
to the team(s) on which the player played.

6. Automatic Elections: No automatic
elections based on performances such as a batting
average of .400 or more for one (1) year, pitching
a perfect game or similar outstanding achievement
shall be permitted.

7. Time of Election: The duly authorized representatives
of the BBWAA shall prepare, date and mail ballots to each
elector no later than the 15th day of January in each year
in which an election is held. The elector shall sign and
return the completed ballot within twenty (20) days. The
vote shall then be tabulated by the duly authorized
representatives of the BBWAA.

8. Certification of Election Results: The results of the
election shall be certified by a representative of the
Baseball Writers' Association of America and an officer
of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Inc.
The results shall be transmitted to the Commissioner
of Baseball. The BBWAA and National Baseball Hall of
Fame and Museum, Inc. shall jointly release the
results for publication.

9. Amendments: The Board of Directors of the National
Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Inc. reserves the right t
o revoke, alter or amend these rules at any time."

[Wuerffel5220]

Agree completely mob. I don't think Ivan Rodriguez deserves in when he's eligible, but he played the position really well (though his abilites have been overrated a bit, word is he called many more fastballs with runners on base to help his ability to catch runners)

[Tebowism0823]

I am a hard liner who believes Rose's lifetime ban should be just that. I would never let him in, he broke the code and bet on games that he may well have tried to alter the outcome to benefit his wallet instead of the integrity of the game. His stats unequivocaly put him in, but unfortunately he got too big for his britches.

As for the guys with the gaudy numbers from the roid era, I wouldn't let any of them in. If they weren't roid heads, they should have turned in the cheaters.

They have cheapened the HOF by letting guys in who won 300 games by winning 15 for 20 years who were never dominant. They have let good players in instead of great ones. That neds to stop. If you don't have any worthy candidates, just hold a celebration with no induction.
Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa should never get in and probably not McGwire. The only hesitation I have on McGwire is he hit a legit 49 HR's his rookie year and took off games at the end to see his son born. But if I have to sacrifice him to keep the cheaters out, I would.

I agree with this. If you cheated you don't deserve to be in. Period!

[JohnC1908]

But you can't argue that he did play the position and no other catcher put up the offensive numbers he did. There is a reason catchers don't put up huge offensive numbers year after year because of the wear and tear put on your body day in and day out.

I understand but he was a horrible catcher. Not below average but just downright horrible. I think he should eventually get in but does not deserve the prestige that comes with being a first ballot HOF'r.

[Wuerffel5220]

Old- I am with you in that the whole career needs to be taken in account. I was just playing devil's advocate for those who argue against Bonds because he was "dirty" He was not dirty his entire career. All belief is that he started using after the 1999 season. So rule 3B would still theoretically apply if you exclude the "dirty seasons" as he was a 13 year vet by that point. So when I say he was a HOF before that, if his career ended then, he wouldve had 445 HR, 460 SB, 3 MVP's, ROY, 8 All Star Appearances and 8 Gold Gloves. That's a Hall of Famer, even if you add zeros to his next 7 seasons, instead of the greatest 5 year run in the history of baseball, including a season with 73 HR's and a separate season with a .370 Batting Average (and another at .362) with 4 straight MVP's. No one who's ever played, on steroids or not, has ever come close to a stretch like that.

It doesn't take into account the vague rule 5 interpretation. Was Ty Cobb, a virulent racist and player who intentionally tried to injure fielders, worthy? Should we remove him? That clause becomes a very gray area.

[Wuerffel5220]

I understand but he was a horrible catcher. Not below average but just downright horrible. I think he should eventually get in but does not deserve the prestige that comes with being a first ballot HOF'r.

Is there really more prestige?

Can you tell me which of these guys were first ballot HOF's off hand and which weren't?

Hank Aaron
Joe DiMaggio
Lou Brock
Lou Gehrig
Kirby Puckett
Cy Young
Robin Yount
Yogi Berra
Dennis Eckersley
Jimmie Foxx
Eddie Murray

[JohnC1908]

5220 no I really can't honestly but I know the standards of who does and doesn't get in have changed quite a bit.

[Wuerffel5220]

The even number guys- DiMaggio, Gehrig, Young, Berra and Foxx are not 1st ballot guys.

Gehrig, Young and Foxx were "punished" because they only took 6 in the initial class.
The standard now tends to be "DiMaggio wasn't a first ballot guy, so XXXXXX, shouldn't be" or as you said "he's a Hall of Famer, but not a first ballot HOF worthy player"

To me, you are either a Hall of Famer or you aren't

[JohnC1908]

To me, you are either a Hall of Famer or you aren't
I could get on board with that but that's not the way it works. IMO, Piazza was a DH playing catcher. His stats really shouldn't be compared with Bench, Campanella, etc. Maybe the prettiest right hand swing I've ever seen though.

[Wuerffel5220]

I could get on board with that but that's not the way it works. IMO, Piazza was a DH playing catcher. His stats really shouldn't be compared with Bench, Campanella, etc. Maybe the prettiest right hand swing I've ever seen though.

Would you never vote for a "specialist". A closer or a DH under any circumstances?

[Gatorsmob]

I understand what you are saying John but he played catcher there is no arguing that day in day out he put on the knee pads and wore his body out playing catcher. You can say he was a terrible catcher but you can't deny what he did hitting wise while he played catcher. This is like saying Ozzie smith doesn't deserve to be in the hall of fame cause he couldn't hit. Ozzie who is probably the best defensive shortstop to live got in because of that and by no means because of his hitting.

[gatorman_07732]

I agree with this. If you cheated you don't deserve to be in. Period!

Exactly how did Rose cheat?

[JohnC1908]

Would you never vote for a "specialist". A closer or a DH under any circumstances?

Of course I would but I think I'd be a bit more reluctant than vote for somebody who is perceived as the greatest offensive catcher of all time.

[Sylez_G_Koolaid]

Jonah Keri had one of the better takes on the vote, in my opinion. Worth the read. This part I liked especially:

Then there's the subset of voters who … let's be charitable and say they're not winning any math-related Genius Grants. Forget WAR or JAWS or any other specific advanced stat. Can we get a little nuance beyond hewing to round numbers of hits, home runs, and wins? It'd be great if more voters could at least acknowledge the vastly different offensive criteria that should define success for a first baseman compared to a shortstop, center fielder, or especially a catcher. Maybe a little nod to park effects, and how playing most of one's career at the Astrodome or Safeco Field might yield vastly different results than, say, Fenway? No one's asking anyone to retake their math SATs, but maybe something a little better than a quick scan of raw Triple Crown stats and then calling it a day.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/47091/the-fallacy-of-the-baseball-hall-of-fame

[panhandlegator70]

I know there is a baseball forum but this is more read. Here is how I would solve the steroid problem. Vvote based on their stats before they were under suspicion. Binds would get in based in his years in Pittsburgh alone, same for pre Yankee Clemons. That would problem peace out Sosa and McGuire (and I really kijed McGuire) and don't forget everyone knew but were happy for McGuire and sammy (Rifkin stream was a part for sure) to put butts back in the seats post strike

[Wuerffel5220]

There's a good HOF discussion going on in the Pub. Going to move this there

[Wuerffel5220]

Love Jonah Keri and Grantland

[gtr2x]

If we are going all pure on this thing then what about evicting the guys that threw spitters and cut the ball, etc. Funny how that seems to be OK, even cool that they got away with it in some circles. Names like, Perry and Ford come to mind for starters.

[G8rChuck85]

Merging the "hall of fame" thread with the "Your MLB Hall of Fame ballot" thread.

[LeafUF]

Cheating is as much as a part of the game as as the bases.

You know how to fix the issues just make steroids legal and let it play itself out.