Controversial Religion Billboard.

[Jstewie15]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/os-muslim-billboards-orlando-20121231,0,5249825.story. As a Born Again Christian I can guarantee this is false advertisement by Muslims. God Bless

[bluelang]

What is false advertising, exactly? Islam was created after Christianity and based on the same laws, just as Christianity was on Judaism.

[Jstewie15]

Christianity is totally different from Muslim. Christianity is not a religion. Muslim have totally different believes. They don't believe in Jesus. They don't believe in salvation.

[108]

Christianity is totally different from Muslim. Christianity is not a religion. Muslim have totally different believes. They don't believe in Jesus. They don't believe in salvation.

:awkward:

[MichiGator2002]

They really have very little in common. "... is the Son of God" is a pretty significant wedge. Plus, doctrinally they share almost nothing.

[bluelang]

Christianity is totally different from Muslim. Christianity is not a religion. Muslim have totally different believes. They don't believe in Jesus. They don't believe in salvation.

Go on then, explain what Christianity is if it isn't a religion. :beat:

[philnotfil]

Theologically, Islam is closer to Judaism than to Christianity, but there are some interesting similarities between the teachings of the two religions.

[rivergator]

Go on then, explain what Christianity is if it isn't a religion. :beat:

I read where O'Reilly made the same claim on Fox a few weeks ago. I'd be curious about an explanation, too.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

They're all Abrahamatic religions, there's no false advertising there.

[rampartgator]

IMO, for 95% of their adherents all three come down to nothing more than elaborate systems of rationalization for any given believer's prejudices and preferences.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

As a Christian, I say people should believe what feels right to them. Now if they come to me and ask my advice, I'll gladly tell them about the words of Christ.

[rampartgator]

None of the words in any of the gospels are the words of Jesus. Instead, they are the words of a handful of Jesus' followers, which were then translated (or mistranslated) from Aramaic or Greek through Latin, then to English, in multiple versions. Applying the same methodology to a manual for assembly of a bicycle you could end up with a cement mixer and still be absolutely convinced that a cement mixer was what the originator of the manual intended in the first place. :bored:

[orangeblueorangeblue]

None of the words in any of the gospels are the words of Jesus.

The words of Christ are contained within. Whether you choose to believe that or not is another matter.

Instead, they are the words of a handful of Jesus' followers, which were then translated (or mistranslated) from Aramaic or Greek through Latin, then to English, in multiple versions. Applying the same methodology to a manual for assembly of a bicycle you could end up with a cement mixer and still be absolutely convinced that a cement mixer was what the originator of the manual intended in the first place. :bored:

Again, you missed a critical step in this analysis.

[jimgata]

I heard a comment years ago on tv,where someone was asked what he had been doing, His reply was " I have been searching for God, but religion keeps getting in the way".
Faith created by God, religion by man.

[altalias]

There is nothing misleading about it. They believe all are prophets of Islam. They might be wrong but it is their sincere belief.

[AmericaFirst]

Christianity is totally different from Muslim. Christianity is not a religion. Muslim have totally different believes. They don't believe in Jesus. They don't believe in salvation.


A number of things. Jesus is regarded as a Prophet in Islam, second only to Muhammad. In Judaism, not only do they denounce Christ as a "false prophet" but Judaism also teaches that Christ was the most harmful of the "false prophets." Jews have never believed in Jesus and try reading The Talmud sometime and find out what they really think of him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus

[Dreamliner]

Jesus now knows how Tim Tebow feels. He's third-string now.

[MichiGator2002]

A number of things. Jesus is regarded as a Prophet in Islam, second only to Muhammad. In Judaism, not only do they denounce Christ as a "false prophet" but Judaism also teaches that Christ was the most harmful of the "false prophets." Jews have never believed in Jesus and try reading The Talmud sometime and find out what they really think of him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus

I don't care what Jews think of Jesus; I care what Jesus/God thinks of the Jews (hint: He is in favor of them).

[HALLGATOR]

Go on then, explain what Christianity is if it isn't a religion. :beat:

I'm still awaiting the explanation for this.

[rampartgator]

And what might that critical step be?


The words of Christ are contained within. Whether you choose to believe that or not is another matter.



Again, you missed a critical step in this analysis.

[Dreamliner]

I don't care what Jews think of Jesus; I care what Jesus/God thinks of the Jews (hint: He is in favor of them).

You're about 2,000 years late on this.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

And what might that critical step be?

That these were - relayed, poorly translated, etc. - the words of Christ.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

I don't care what Jews think of Jesus; I care what Jesus/God thinks of the Jews (hint: He is in favor of them).

Similarly, I'd not try to speak for Jesus as to what he might have though of Islam.

[rampartgator]

That these were - relayed, poorly translated, etc. - the words of Christ.

So, sort of a scriptural game of telephone. That was precisely my point. Neither you nor I know exactly what Jesus said, since it was all relayed through second or third parties, some of whom (like Saul of Tarsus) never met him.

[Dreamliner]

So, sort of a scriptural game of telephone. That was precisely my point. Neither you nor I know exactly what Jesus said, since it was all relayed through second or third parties, some of whom (like Saul of Tarsus) never met him.

Some by eyewitnesses whom Paul had access to.

[rampartgator]

Like I said, a game of telephone; So Jesus told X and years later X told Paul what he understood Jesus to have said, and Paul wrote down what he understood X to have understood Jesus to have said years after X heard what he remembered Jesus to have said.

Surprised no one has played the "divinely inspired" card yet. That's a doozy.


Some by eyewitnesses whom Paul had access to.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

So, sort of a scriptural game of telephone. That was precisely my point.

No, your point was that it decidedly was not the words of Christ. You don't know that. Whether you choose to believe or not is largely a matter of whether you're Christian.

[108]

regardless of the potential words of Christ, what about the instances of mysticism of Jesus or others in the Bible(s)

walking on water, healing, resurrection, etc...

do people really believe these accounts when they have no zero proof of it in their own life experiences?

to me, the core of what's worthwhile in Christianity is quite simple: Love thyself and thy neighbor

this is what is practical and can be practiced in real life and have tangible effects

all else is dogma to me

[Dreamliner]

Like I said, a game of telephone; So Jesus told X and years later X told Paul what he understood Jesus to have said, and Paul wrote down what he understood X to have understood Jesus to have said years after X heard what he remembered Jesus to have said.

Surprised no one has played the "divinely inspired" card yet. That's a doozy.

So ? And ? are you saying you're too dim to remember the gist of a phone conversation or even a relayed phone conversation ?

And you're the one who played the divine inspiration card. What does that mean to you, that the Bible dropped "Thud!" fully-edited from Heaven ?

[orangeblueorangeblue]

regardless of the potential words of Christ, what about the instances of mysticism of Jesus or others in the Bible(s)

walking on water, healing, resurrection, etc...

do people really believe these accounts when they have no zero proof of it in their own life experiences?

to me, the core of what's worthwhile in Christianity is quite simple: Love thyself and thy neighbor

this is what is practical and can be practiced in real life and have tangible effects

all else is dogma to me

I'm not actually a Biblical literalist. The "word of Christ" relates more to his message and teachings than the specific sentences, etc.

I see most of the allegories and demonstrations of the Bible as symbolic. What I believe, however, is Christ's message has survived in the text.

[108]

I'm not actually a Biblical literalist. The "word of Christ" relates more to his message and teachings than the specific sentences, etc.

I see most of the allegories and demonstrations of the Bible as symbolic. What I believe, however, is Christ's message has survived in the text.

and to me, it boils down to what I mentioned

none of the rest is within your control

try your best to do those things, the Golden Rule, and let go

i can't even believe if I don't actually believe it

[Dreamliner]

The things that Jesus was reported to have done are a red-herring. I mean, it's not like anyone really takes what Jesus *said* seriously.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

i can't even believe if I don't actually believe it

Thanks, Yogi.

[108]

The things that Jesus was reported to have done are a red-herring. I mean, it's not like anyone really takes what Jesus *said* seriously.

just enough to make them feel guilty :awkward:

[Dreamliner]

Thanks, Yogi.

Watch him take a fork in the road as the argument grows more complex.

[jimgata]

All religion should be reduced to one simple statement, "The Golden Rule".
We get so involved into the small details regarding religion and the meaning of this act or that act, what one said and what one did not say, that we forget the basics of true religion and it doesn't take a biblical scholar to come to a conclusion of what one believes.

[rivergator]

I don't care what Jews think of Jesus; I care what Jesus/God thinks of the Jews (hint: He is in favor of them).

anyone he/they are not in favor of?

[Dreamliner]

just enough to make them feel guilty :awkward:

Well, it would never do to make the guilty feel guilty. Probably one reason why we'd be as apt to kill Jesus today as they were way back then.

[AmericaFirst]

I don't care what Jews think of Jesus; I care what Jesus/God thinks of the Jews (hint: He is in favor of them).



That's open to interpretation.

[lacuna]

The Golden Rule or the ethic of reciprocity is a central teaching in all faiths. All religions but one state in a variety of ways - either in the positive or negative - that we should treat all other people in the way we wish to be treated or to not deal with them as we ourselves don't want to be dealt with.

The one exception is Islam which states "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself" or alternate translation "Not one of you is a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself." It is the only one to exclude all but fellow believers in Islam. And knowing how women are discriminated against, perhaps it even excludes them from the maxim and justifies their mistreatment.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc2.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc3.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/mor_dive3.htm

[oragator1]

The Golden Rule or the ethic of reciprocity is a central teaching in all faiths. All religions but one state in a variety of ways - either in the positive or negative - that we should treat all other people in the way we wish to be treated or to not deal with them as we ourselves don't want to be dealt with.

The one exception is Islam which states "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself" or alternate translation "Not one of you is a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself." It is the only one to exclude all but fellow believers in Islam. And knowing how women are discriminated against, perhaps it even excludes them from the maxim and justifies their mistreatment.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc2.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc3.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/mor_dive3.htm

That interpretation would come as a surprise to many Muslims.

http://mtakbar.wordpress.com/2008/01/12/islam-has-no-golden-rule/

I am still waiting to understand what the false witness is. Muslims do believe in all of the people mentioned on the billboard, they just hold some in different regard than Christians. I am also curious as to how Christianity isn't a religion.

[CHFG8R]

What is false advertising, exactly? Islam was created after Christianity and based on the same laws, just as Christianity was on Judaism.

Exactly and for good reason. When he CREATED Islam for HIS OWN PERSONAL GAIN, Muhammed took a good look at the landscape and, not surprisingly, sought to glom on to the fastest growing religion in the region at that time - Christianity. Smart move if you think about it. Instead of trying to build a religion FOR YOU OWN PERSONAL GAIN from the ground up (with a new creation story, etc.), just build off of what is already established and growing. Co-opt the prevailing religion of the day and close all those nasty little loopholes so that the religion - and its followers - are in lockstep with your personal goals of power acquisition.

It's really pretty simple when you do the basic math. That is, unless you actually believe that God spoke to him through Gabriel in a cave (fittingly, with no witnesses) and that all the power - military, financial and political - he gained was just mere coincidence.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

Yes, the last thing we can do is follow a religion that co-opted elements of other religions. :ninja:

[wgbgator]

Haha, if people wanted a truly "original" religion, they should probably become Scientologists or something.

[Gatormb]

Buddhism does not be believe in a personal god.

Hindu's believe in many gods.

In Islam they try to please god in order to gain mercy.

All of these religions are man's attempt to please God. Only Christianity teaches that that is impossible so God reached down to man in reconciliation through Jesus Christ. Christianity teaches that ONLY through a relationship with the Savior can you be made right (righteous) with God the Father. That relationship produces saving repentance, a contrite heart grateful that our sin was paid for on the cross, that makes us want to please Jesus. This opposed to an attitude of "well if I have to believe so I don't go to hell, I'll do it."

Certainly Christianity is "organized" but it's all about an individual relationship with Christ, not about a "religion". That's the difference.

[Gatormb]

Haha, if people wanted a truly "original" religion, they should probably become Scientologists or something.

Cost ya a couple hundred grand to get rid of those pesky alien souls.:whoa:

[CHFG8R]

Yes, the last thing we can do is follow a religion that co-opted elements of other religions. :ninja:

Just calling a Duck a Duck. Christianity may be guilty of the same thing to a lesser degree. Of course, that's the downfall of having your philosophy spread by a disparate group as opposed to clearly serving the gains of one. That's how you get messy stuff like the concept of the Trinity (of which wars were beng fought at the time of Islam's founding by it's self-serving founder). Muhammed was smart in that he nipped that stuff in the bud right away. That's clearly the angle of the "this is the direct word of God as spoken through Gabriel and transcribed by Muhammed" part of the doctrine. Eliminates all that messy interpretation stuff that, in addition to creating internal questions re. the doctrines, also led directly to wars between the factions.

Muhammed's motives are actually pretty clear cut when you step back and take a good look at the circumstances - and results - of Islam's creation. Clearly, no Prophet has ever "profited" as much as he from his "conversations with God."

[Dreamliner]

Haha, if people wanted a truly "original" religion, they should probably become Scientologists or something.

They probably don't want to endure persecution. Or they might like to travel to Germany at some point.

[wgbgator]

They probably don't want to endure persecution. Or they might like to travel to Germany at some point.

Given some of the posts here, you'd think Christians are the most persecuted religion on earth. So, I don't think that's it. Some people seem to relish being victims of persecution. Now that Scientology has its tax exempt status too, it can also revel in the type of "persecution" that only Americans can suffer.

[Dreamliner]

Given some of the posts here, you'd think Christians are the most persecuted religion on earth. So, I don't think that's it. Some people seem to relish being victims of persecution. Now that Scientology has its tax exempt status too, it can also revel in the type of "persecution" that only Americans can suffer.

A distinction needs to be made here. American Christians are not really persecuted. Worldwide, that's a different matter.

[wgbgator]

A distinction needs to be made here. American Christians are not really persecuted. Worldwide, that's a different matter.

Fair enough. But I doubt many Iranian Christians are posting on this forum, so I think that was implied in my post.

[CHFG8R]

Given some of the posts here, you'd think Christians are the most persecuted religion on earth. So, I don't think that's it. Some people seem to relish being victims of persecution. Now that Scientology has its tax exempt status too, it can also revel in the type of "persecution" that only Americans can suffer.

I refer to this mentality as "nailing yourself to the cross." Fitting, don't ya think?

[lacuna]

That interpretation would come as a surprise to many Muslims.

http://mtakbar.wordpress.com/2008/01/12/islam-has-no-golden-rule/


I'll abide by what I posted earlier. Islam does not have an all inclusive ethic of reciprocity as found in all other religions.

Read the Hadith you posted carefully in context. It is referring to disagreements among Muslims and their internal dealings with one another.


Quran 48:29 ... Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves.

Quran 9:123 ... O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous.

[oragator1]

I'll abide by what I posted earlier. Islam does not have an all inclusive ethic of reciprocity as found in all other religions.

Read the Hadith you posted carefully in context. It is referring to disagreements among Muslims and their internal dealings with one another.


Quran 48:29 ... Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves.

Quran 9:123 ... O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous.

Disappointed but I guess not surprised with your response. I didn't provide that link for the follow up Hadith, but the interpretation of the original one. Muslims say your original passage means one thing, including some of their eminent scholars (and even the site you quoted btw, the context was on the golden rule), but you, as someone who comes from a completely different faith, you are the one who can properly discern the context. And then you completely ignore the bible's own apparent hypocrisy on exactly the same point in your additional passages.

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10"

I am sure the next post will be putting the above quote into "context" about how the verse reference was to Israel and not all non-believers etc, without affording Muslims the same privilege on the quotes you chose to highlight or as I mentioned above, or deferring to their experts as to what the passages mean.
This is exactly why I view the major religions as dangerous, because they encourage exactly this sort of behavior, minimizing others in the name of yours, trumpeting something that's supposed to be about good and inclusiveness by the denigration of others. And what's as bad or worse, is that many of those who are deeply religious (in all religions) seem pathologically incapable of even recognizing this flaw. There are literally dozens of sites that explain some of these passages in context if anyone waned to have an open mind about it.

[92gator]

Buddhism does not be believe in a personal god.

Hindu's believe in many gods.

In Islam they try to please god in order to gain mercy.

All of these religions are man's attempt to please God. Only Christianity teaches that that is impossible so God reached down to man in reconciliation through Jesus Christ. Christianity teaches that ONLY through a relationship with the Savior can you be made right (righteous) with God the Father. That relationship produces saving repentance, a contrite heart grateful that our sin was paid for on the cross, that makes us want to please Jesus. This opposed to an attitude of "well if I have to believe so I don't go to hell, I'll do it."

Certainly Christianity is "organized" but it's all about an individual relationship with Christ, not about a "religion". That's the difference.

Are you therefore joining 'jstewie15' in claiming Christianity isn't a religion?

[92gator]

Exactly and for good reason. When he CREATED Islam for HIS OWN PERSONAL GAIN, Muhammed took a good look at the landscape and, not surprisingly, sought to glom on to the fastest growing religion in the region at that time - Christianity. Smart move if you think about it. Instead of trying to build a religion FOR YOU OWN PERSONAL GAIN from the ground up (with a new creation story, etc.), just build off of what is already established and growing. Co-opt the prevailing religion of the day and close all those nasty little loopholes so that the religion - and its followers - are in lockstep with your personal goals of power acquisition.

.....


You could actually substitute Martin Luther for Muhammed up there, and 'Islam' with protestantism, and it would fit.

Dispense with all of those shackles that came with the Church that Yeshua actually founded--vows of chastity, vows of poverty, submission to authority, respecting precedence and Sacred Tradition, etc., ...replace with 'sola scriptura', and you have the justification for every man being able to found their own personal *Private Profit Center* in the name of Jesus Christ, and call it a 'church'.

...and you get good ol' fashioned Capitalist Christianity!

Just and Yeshua designed it!

[92gator]

That interpretation would come as a surprise to many Muslims.

http://mtakbar.wordpress.com/2008/01/12/islam-has-no-golden-rule/

.....

...as your interpretation comes as a surprise to anyone who isn't a muslim apologist.

[oragator1]

...as your interpretation comes as a surprise to anyone who isn't a muslim apologist.

That's exactly the point, it's not my interpretation, I am deferring to those who can speak to it. I don't claim to be an expert on any religion, but particularly not on one I wasn't raised with, I would believe those who know it far better than me. But not surprised that point was lost.

[92gator]

^^^gotcha'.

However, whatever they may proclaim, muslims haven't exactly taken pains to promote 'the golden rule' in any country in which they represent a majority.

...so please forgive me for taking your noble defense of their cause, with a grain of salt.