Neocons

[Burke]

This is not a subject I know a lot about, but there is a growing belief among some Objectivists that neocons are a greater threat than leftists. In a private email, I asked one who sometimes writes for a national publication if she thought this was true.

Her response,

"Yes, absolutely. No one mistakes a leftist, and leftists do not really undermine the ideological cohesion of the right. Neocons are dangerous precisely because they are so well-camouflaged and work covertly to undermine us. They are literally experts at it."

My first thoughts about this were to recall how harshly Krauthammer and Kristol savaged the Tea Party members of Congress on the debt hike fight a couple of years ago.

[cocodrilo]

The result of the 2000 election was a neocon coup. Dubya probably didn't know what a neocon was till he became their puppet and invaded Iraq for them. Yes, I would say they are dangerous.

[Dreamliner]

The neocons are still in the White House. They've just won a fourth term.

[GatorAvatar]

The result of the 2000 election was a neocon coup. Dubya probably didn't know what a neocon was till he became their puppet and invaded Iraq for them. Yes, I would say they are dangerous.

I have always told my liberal friends that George Bush is not a bad person. Bush is a decent human being comfortable with Latinos, blacks and he raised a beautiful family and his wife is AMAZING. Bush was probably threatened by Cheney, Rove and the other neocons to toe their line or they would probably destroy his presidency.

[Minister_of_Information]

Anything that can unite you guys in opposition has my enthusiastic approval.

[DSRrg]

I dont want to sound like an idiot but can someone give me an actual definition of what a "neocon" is?

[Dreamliner]

I dont want to sound like an idiot but can someone give me an actual definition of what a "neocon" is?

I gather that the official definition is a Republican who likes wars, as distinct from a Democrat who likes wars.

[Jaggator]

neoconservative- a conservative who advocates the assertive promotion of democracy and United States national interest in international affairs including through military means.

[Dreamliner]

neoconservative- a conservative who advocates the assertive promotion of democracy and United States national interest in international affairs including through military means.

Of course we've been doing this for the better part of a century now. It's just that about twenty years ago Republicans decided it was their turn to start doing it.

[wargunfan]

neoconservative- a conservative who advocates the assertive promotion of democracy and United States national interest in international affairs including through military means.

Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, JFK, LBJ were neocons. Who knew? And now we have Bushbama.

[Burke]

I once heard Limbaugh say that a neocons are always Jewish. I've gotten the impression that they are mostly former leftists, as Krauthammer is.

[JohnC1908]

Lulz, this is a real email? I can't imagine living in a world of such paranoia.

[Minister_of_Information]

Mostly neoconservatives are disaffected leftists who embraced Reagan (himself a former leftist) and his cold warrior and anti-statist agenda for anti-totalitarian reasons. Basically they fell out of love with the idea of the state as the primary means of improving society, while reconnecting with the radical liberalism of the founding. David Horowitz is an exemplar but there are many others. They believe that liberal society (liberal in the sense of liberty rather than necessarily policy) must be forcefully defended, and to a lesser extent, spread forcefully as an antidote to totalitarianism.

Interestingly enough, I'm reading a book by Paul Berman at present that deals with the European incarnation of this very phenomenon: the shifting politics of the '68 radicals.

[g8orbill]

This is not a subject I know a lot about, but there is a growing belief among some Objectivists that neocons are a greater threat than leftists. In a private email, I asked one who sometimes writes for a national publication if she thought this was true.

Her response,

"Yes, absolutely. No one mistakes a leftist, and leftists do not really undermine the ideological cohesion of the right. Neocons are dangerous precisely because they are so well-camouflaged and work covertly to undermine us. They are literally experts at it."

My first thoughts about this were to recall how harshly Krauthammer and Kristol savaged the Tea Party members of Congress on the debt hike fight a couple of years ago.

spoken like a true liberal-why would you think this is true

[GatorAvatar]

Is g8orbill the most conservative poster on the board? Probably a tea party activist?

[ATLitigator]

big picture....libbies, neocons, lefts and rights in Washington are not all that different

they are consumed by their power and their constant quest to remain their

they both want to spend taxpayer money to remain in power

one side buys the votes thru social programs/entitlements and handouts
the other side thru big business, fiscal/economic policy and the military

they really on differ on how to raise the money they are spending

until we replace the politicians in washington with people who are actually interested in solving the problems, this is what we are going to have until our country collapses

it does not matter who is in the white house, in the senate or in the house...they are all the same

[rpmGator]

Fact is, the further in either direction you go from the middle, the more you are full of it.

[g8orbill]

funny thing about that middle rpm-liberals think they are the middle

[tegator80]

This is not a subject I know a lot about, but there is a growing belief among some Objectivists that neocons are a greater threat than leftists. In a private email, I asked one who sometimes writes for a national publication if she thought this was true.

Her response,

"Yes, absolutely. No one mistakes a leftist, and leftists do not really undermine the ideological cohesion of the right. Neocons are dangerous precisely because they are so well-camouflaged and work covertly to undermine us. They are literally experts at it."

My first thoughts about this were to recall how harshly Krauthammer and Kristol savaged the Tea Party members of Congress on the debt hike fight a couple of years ago.

I think this is exactly why our country is going in a bad direction. Not because we have people who are ambitious and hawkish but because we have people who claim to be objective but only see one side. And isn't it nice and tidy that the vast majority (exclusively?) of these so called demons are old white guys? They are the beady eyed criminals in the old movies: easy for the general population to pick out. But the "others" who are "pure in their ideals" and it shows in their faces are at least well meaning if not heroic.

If anyone is truly paying attention to what is going on, it is that the middle ground of our social conscience has morphed into a fat, happy and stupid group. Both the "lefts" and "rights" are taking advantage of it. And I am getting more and more convinced that they are one in the same and not just in effect. The real play is all of the energy demonizing each other so that the middle stays put and continues to play by the same rules. The past election pretty much legitimized the fact that while we don't like what is happening to our country, the results say "stay the course." And that is truly sad for us and our future.

But hey, that is okay because I just got a new ipad and smart phone for Christmas and America's Got Talent will be cranking up again shortly!

[AmericaFirst]

This is not a subject I know a lot about, but there is a growing belief among some Objectivists that neocons are a greater threat than leftists. In a private email, I asked one who sometimes writes for a national publication if she thought this was true.

Her response,

"Yes, absolutely. No one mistakes a leftist, and leftists do not really undermine the ideological cohesion of the right. Neocons are dangerous precisely because they are so well-camouflaged and work covertly to undermine us. They are literally experts at it."

My first thoughts about this were to recall how harshly Krauthammer and Kristol savaged the Tea Party members of Congress on the debt hike fight a couple of years ago.



Neocon has and always will be the code word for Zionist aka the Israel Firsters. Romney was one as well. We haven't had a true Republican in office since Reagan. They'll continue to run this country into the ground while making us pay for their wars in the Middle East which do nothing for us but everything for Israel. Until they're removed and the people wake up to this nonsense, we'll continue to get destroyed from within. Krauthammer and Kristol are two of the worst Zionists. They'd like nothing more than to see us invade Iran and get thousands more of our troops killed in a no-win war while also killing thousands of Iranian civilians.

I used to enjoy watching Fox News until they became the Zionist/Neocon mouthpiece. Unfortunately, I don't think the American people are intelligent enough as a whole to wake up to this undermining and it'll be too late if they do.

Got to increase that debt limit so we can send more weapons to the Middle East. Oh, and the American taxpayer will be on the hook for the bill.

[AmericaFirst]

I once heard Limbaugh say that a neocons are always Jewish. I've gotten the impression that they are mostly former leftists, as Krauthammer is.



Neocon's aren't always Jewish but many of them are. It's interesting that Limbaugh would make that statement. I'd like to hear his thoughts on the Middle East. He usually focuses more on domestic matters. Neocon's are mostly a mixture of Zionist Jews, Zionist Christians, and former leftists as you state. I think saying "Jews" is far too simplistic since the Neocon movement was founded with Israel in mind and a number of Jews don't want anything to do with Israel.


"I do believe that there is a group of people who got involved and had a disproportionate influence on U.S. foreign policy. There were people out there in the Jewish community who saw this as a way to create a benign domino theory and eliminate all of Israel's enemies.... I think it represents a really dangerous anachronistic neocolonial sensibility. And I think it is a very, very dangerous form of extremism. I think it's bad for Israel and it's bad for America. And these guys have been getting a free ride. And now these people are backing the notion of a war with Iran and not all of them, but some of them, are doing it because they believe that Iran is an existential threat to Israel." - Joe Klein (Time Magazine)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

[rpmGator]

No Bill, the right wing thinks everyone is liberal and treat them in a way, to make even the moderates hate your positions.

[rivergator]

From The American Conservative;

The “neocons” believe American greatness is measured by our willingness to be a great power—through vast and virtually unlimited global military involvement. Other nations’ problems invariably become our own because history and fate have designated America the world’s top authority.

Critics say the US cannot afford to be the world’s policeman. Neoconservatives not only say that we can but we must—and that we will cease to be America if we don’t. Writes Boston Globe neoconservative columnist Jeff Jacoby: “Our world needs a policeman. And whether most Americans like it or not, only their indispensable nation is fit for the job.” Neocon intellectual Max Boot says explicitly that the US should be the world’s policeman because we are the best policeman.

Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) heartily champions the neoconservative view. While virtually every other recognizably Tea Party congressman or senator opposes the Libyan intervention, Rubio believes the world’s top cop should be flashing its Sherriff’s badge more forcefully in Libya—and everywhere else. New York Times columnist Ross Douthat explains:

“Rubio is the great neoconservative hope, the champion of a foreign policy that boldly goes abroad in search of monsters to destroy… His maiden Senate speech was a paean to national greatness, whose peroration invoked John F. Kennedy and insisted that America remain the ‘watchman on the wall of world freedom.”

link (http://www.theamericanconservative.com/whats-a-neoconservative/)

[g8orbill]

based upon that link river I do not qualify as a neocon

[rivergator]

based upon that link river I do not qualify as a neocon

me either.

[cocodrilo]

Well God help us if Rubio is our future. In a sane world you would think that the Bush administration would have totally discredited the neocons. Instead they're crouching at the door. Romney wanted to bring them back too but now they have to wait a little longer, though we may well go to war anyway with Iran, which will tide them over nicely.

[AmericaFirst]

From The American Conservative;



link (http://www.theamericanconservative.com/whats-a-neoconservative/)



If that's correct about Rubio, I won't ever vote for him. These scumbags waging war in the Middle East, getting our troops killed like sitting ducks, and making the American taxpayer pay for it are the epitome of evil. It's no surprise that Rubio is a neoconservative if that's true since the neocons that have destroyed the GOP are pushing a "minority" candidate like Rubio as the next GOP presidential rep.

[AmericaFirst]

Well God help us if Rubio is our future. In a sane world you would think that the Bush administration would have totally discredited the neocons. Instead they're crouching at the door. Romney wanted to bring them back too but now they have to wait a little longer, though we may well go to war anyway with Iran, which will tide them over nicely.



One Name - John.Bolton.



He has been wanting to bomb Iran since 2008, was an architect of the Iraq war, and also was a spineless turd back in the 60s when he admitted that he dodged the Vietnam draft. Biggest warmongers these days are those that didn't have the spine to serve their country when needed.



Oh, and Romney was going to appoint Bolton Secretary of Defense. FRIGHTENING.

[Dreamliner]

I'm just pissed-off at Democrats for electing Bush to a fourth term.

[cocodrilo]

I'm just pissed-off at Democrats for electing Bush to a fourth term.

He looks much better with a tan. It even seems to have made him smarter.

[Dreamliner]

He looks much better with a tan. It even seems to have made him smarter.

That and he's got the teleprompter working now.

[g8orbill]

I am for conservative ideals and such-but I am not for us being the world's policeman- I actually would like to see us lead through economic example and while I think a strong military is important would prefer we led by the might of our forces and not by actually going in to other countries and risking our military's lives-the one thing bo has done that I actually approve of is his use of drones.

[agigator]

Fact is, the further in either direction you go from the middle, the more you are full of it.

You might be able to make a case for this if what constituted the "middle" were relatively stationary. It's not. The "middle" of today is quite bit to the left of where it was fifty years ago and it will be even further to the left ten years from now.

[g8orbill]

rpm-people who profess to be in the middle are usually people who cannot make a decision

[Dreamliner]

I made a decision 10 years ago. That's why I'm on the outside.

[ATLitigator]

I am for conservative ideals and such-but I am not for us being the world's policeman- I actually would like to see us lead through economic example and while I think a strong military is important would prefer we led by the might of our forces and not by actually going in to other countries and risking our military's lives-the one thing bo has done that I actually approve of is his use of drones.

bill....the problem is that there will be a world superpower (militarily). We can either be it, or we can be subject to it

it is not a pleasant thought, but it is a reality

[g8orbill]

ATL- I want us to be that superpower-I just do not want us to be involved in every disagreement in countries run by dictators

[GatorAvatar]

I'm just pissed-off at Democrats for electing Bush to a fourth term.

I'm glad Bush has told Bibi to suck it and that the USA will not fight his war in Iran. I'm glad Bush is leaving Afghanistan in 2014. I'm glad he's now using drones to wipe out terrorists and not using young men and women.

[GatorAvatar]

I am for conservative ideals and such-but I am not for us being the world's policeman- I actually would like to see us lead through economic example and while I think a strong military is important would prefer we led by the might of our forces and not by actually going in to other countries and risking our military's lives-the one thing bo has done that I actually approve of is his use of drones.

I might have misjudged you as a hardcore, extreme right winger...it seems that you are just a right winger.

[GatorAvatar]

bill....the problem is that there will be a world superpower (militarily). We can either be it, or we can be subject to it

it is not a pleasant thought, but it is a reality

Who? China? China is a paper tiger. It will collapse from within. All that repression of its citizenry will be its downfall. The people will rise up and demand respect, food, freedom and demand less military spending.

[MichiGator2002]

Over a dozen years, the best I can come up with as the definition of "neocon" is "political epithet loosely applied to anyone I disagree with other than total pacifists, that people take seriously, because, after all, it uses a prefix so whomever came up with it must know what they are talking about, and sounds kinda like the bad Transformers, so they must be bad".

[ATLitigator]

Who? China? China is a paper tiger. It will collapse from within. All that repression of its citizenry will be its downfall. The people will rise up and demand respect, food, freedom and demand less military spending.

you sure about that.....china has over a billion people... china has long been under oppressive communist rule.....vietnam was fought....the soviet union collapsed....the berlin wall fell...the olympics were held there...when do you expect this revolution

besides if it is not china it will be someone else, perhaps russia

but anyone that has gone nuclear has the possibility of the being that power, do you want to find out the hard way who it will be?

[MichiGator2002]

China will collapse under its demographic shortcomings, just like most of Europe will. One Child was a vote for eventual self-extinction.

[oaklandroadie]

you sure about that.....china has over a billion people... china has long been under oppressive communist rule.....vietnam was fought....the soviet union collapsed....the berlin wall fell...the olympics were held there...when do you expect this revolution

besides if it is not china it will be someone else, perhaps russia

but anyone that has gone nuclear has the possibility of the being that power, do you want to find out the hard way who it will be?

Not to mention all the unmarried males with no available females that are gonna take that aggression out somewhere.

[wargunfan]

China will collapse under its demographic shortcomings, just like most of Europe will. One Child was a vote for eventual self-extinction.

There are at least one hundred million young Chinese men who will not be able to marry because of the One Child policy. That many frustrated men with no family future would be a danger to any regime.

[Gatormb]

I dont want to sound like an idiot but can someone give me an actual definition of what a "neocon" is?

LOL, glad I wasn't alone. Just looked it up before reading your post.

Conservapedia definition:



neoconservative (also spelled "neo-conservative"; colloquially, neocon) in American politics can appear to be conservative while in fact favoring big government, interventionalism, and a hostility to religion in politics and government. Many neocons had been liberals in their youth and admired President Franklin D. Roosevelt. The movement emerged in the mid 1970s, played a limited role in the Ronald Reagan Administration, and then dominated the George W. Bush Administration after 2001. Neoconservatives are often preferred by liberals to portray the conservative voice in the media, as in television talk shows, newspaper columnists, magazines, think tanks, and advisory positions in Republican Administrations.

In contrast to traditional conservatives, neoconservatives favor globalism, downplay religious issues, [and] are unlikely to actively oppose abortion and homosexuality. Neocons disagree with paleoconservatives on issues such as classroom prayer, the separation of powers, cultural unity, and immigration. Neocons favor a strong active state in world affairs. Neocons oppose affirmative action with greater emphasis and priority than other conservatives do.

On foreign policy, neoconservatives believe that democracy can and should be installed by the United States around the world, even in Muslim countries such as Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.

A more in depth definition:

Neoconservatism is a somewhat controversial term referring to the political goals and ideology of the "new conservatives" in the United States.

Compared to other U.S. conservatives, neoconservatives are characterized by an aggressive stance on foreign policy, a lesser social conservatism, and lesser dedication to a policy of minimal government. The "newness" refers either to being new to American conservatism (often coming from liberal or socialist backgrounds) or to being part of a "new wave" of conservative thought and political organization.

The term is used more often by those who oppose "neoconservative" politics than those who subscribe to them; indeed, many to whom the label is applied reject it. The term is sometimes used pejoratively, especially by the self-described paleoconservatives, who oppose neoconservatism from the right. Critics of the term argue that the word is overused and lacks coherent definition. For instance, they note that many so-called neoconservatives vehemently disagree with one another on major issues.

As a rule, the term refers to journalists, pundits, policy analysts, and institutions affiliated with policy think tanks such as the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), the Heritage Foundation and the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) and periodicals such as Commentary, Policy Review and The Weekly Standard.

Beliefs:

This political group supported a militant anticommunism; more social welfare spending than was acceptable to libertarians and mainstream conservatives; and sympathy with a non-traditionalist agenda, being more inclined than other conservatives toward an interventionist foreign policy and a unilateralism that is sometimes at odds with traditional conceptions of diplomacy and international law.

But domestic policy does not define neoconservatism; it is a movement founded on, and perpetuated by an aggressive approach to foreign policy, opposition to communism during the Cold War, free trade, and opposition to Middle Eastern states that are perceived to pursue terrorism or anti- Israel policies. Thus, their foremost target was the conservative but pragmatic approach to foreign policy often associated with Richard Nixon, i.e., peace through negotiations, diplomacy, and arms control, détente and containment (rather than rollback) of the Soviet Union, and the beginning of the process that would lead to bilateral ties between the People's Republic of China (PRC) and the U.S.

Intellectually, neoconservatives have been strongly influenced by a diverse range of thinkers from Max Shachtman's strongly anti- Soviet version of Trotskyism* (in the area of international policy) to the elitist, ostensibly neo- Platonic** ideas of Leo Strauss.

http://the-classic-liberal.com/conservative-what-is-neocon/

[Spurffelbow833]

Liberals are well-meaning but misguided. Neocons are former liberals who are now neither well-meaning nor misguided.

[co_gator89]

The Iraq war alone should have been enough to discredit the neocons. These people thought that fool's errand up and did the cheerleading for it well before 9/11 and sold it to the American public by spewing outright fairy tales. And when everything fell to pieces and most people had realized that we were lied to, they rigorously defended their little experiment that cost us 1.5x the amount of lives we lost on 9/11 in a country that had nothing to do with it.

They have zero credibility left and yet some people still think that guys like John Bolton, Charles Krauthammer, and William Kristol are total geniuses.

[Minister_of_Information]

The Iraq war alone should have been enough to discredit the neocons. These people thought that fool's errand up and did the cheerleading for it well before 9/11 and sold it to the American public by spewing outright fairy tales. And when everything fell to pieces and most people had realized that we were lied to, they rigorously defended their little experiment that cost us 1.5x the amount of lives we lost on 9/11 in a country that had nothing to do with it.

They have zero credibility left and yet some people still think that guys like John Bolton, Charles Krauthammer, and William Kristol are total geniuses.

At your service.

Well, maybe not total geniuses.

[AmericaFirst]

The Iraq war alone should have been enough to discredit the neocons. These people thought that fool's errand up and did the cheerleading for it well before 9/11 and sold it to the American public by spewing outright fairy tales. And when everything fell to pieces and most people had realized that we were lied to, they rigorously defended their little experiment that cost us 1.5x the amount of lives we lost on 9/11 in a country that had nothing to do with it.

They have zero credibility left and yet some people still think that guys like John Bolton, Charles Krauthammer, and William Kristol are total geniuses.



Well said. All three of them apparently believe that Americans were born to be slaves for Israel.

[Burke]

For the record, I think Israel is an outpost of civilization surrounded by savages, and they are fighting essentially the same war we are fighting.

[Spurffelbow833]

For the record, I think Israel is an outpost of civilization surrounded by savages, and they are fighting essentially the same war we are fighting.

The neocon agenda is heavily tied to this relationship.

[Burke]

Neocons aren't wrong about everything just because they are neocons. It's their domestic agenda that concerns me.

[Minister_of_Information]

Of the founders, who was closest to the neocons? Jefferson?

[Spurffelbow833]

Of the founders, who was closest to the neocons? Jefferson?

I'd say Hamilton. Jefferson was farthest, if anything.

[Minister_of_Information]

I'd say Hamilton. Jefferson was farthest, if anything.

Care to elaborate

[Spurffelbow833]

Care to elaborate

Hamilton was a drumbeater for war with France and wanted a national bank for the government to borrow the money to support such adventures.

[peytiepie]

neoconservative- a conservative who advocates the assertive promotion of democracy and United States national interest in international affairs including through military means.

Guilty as charged!:wink:

[AmericaFirst]

For the record, I think Israel is an outpost of civilization surrounded by savages, and they are fighting essentially the same war we are fighting.



That's what the Neocon propaganda wants you to believe. The reality of it is Palestine has now been given UN recognition and is one step away from statehood. The Israelis refuse to acknowledge that and are even building more illegal settlements to show it. They are the epitome of evil.

If Israel wanted peace, they would work to get nukes out of the region. They want to have them, not declare them, and then force other countries not to be able to get them.

If Israel wanted peace, they would stop building illegal settlements on Palestinian land.

If Israel wanted peace, they wouldn't use phosphorous bombs on a civilian population.

I can go on and on. They don't want peace. The Israelis thrive on instability and turmoil in the Middle East. They absolutely love it because it allows them to further their Zionist agenda.

BTW - You're correct that we're fighting the same war and it's because our government kisses their a** and believes they're always right. Period. AIPAC is the root of the problem.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynWjYHP91gA

[g8orbill]

please- the Israeli's offered Arafat everything he said he wanted and then he said no

the Palestinians only goal is the total eradication of Israel

[AmericaFirst]

please- the Israeli's offered Arafat everything he said he wanted and then he said no

the Palestinians only goal is the total eradication of Israel



More Zionist propaganda. The Palestinians turned that deal down because the Israelis a few months later continued building illegal settlements. They are despicable.



Israel's goal is to ethnically cleanse the entire Palestinian territory IE: genocide. The map tells it all.


http://original.antiwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/palestinian-land.jpg

[g8orbill]

this map does not tell it all-it does not reflect what happened during the 6 day war or any other attacks by arabs(includes Palestinians in my view)-when you attack and you lose the war/battle- you usually lose territory



the middle east is in a constant state of war and has been forever-the strongest has survived

[ATLitigator]

That's what the Neocon propaganda wants you to believe. The reality of it is Palestine has now been given UN recognition and is one step away from statehood. The Israelis refuse to acknowledge that and are even building more illegal settlements to show it. They are the epitome of evil.

If Israel wanted peace, they would work to get nukes out of the region. They want to have them, not declare them, and then force other countries not to be able to get them.

If Israel wanted peace, they would stop building illegal settlements on Palestinian land.

If Israel wanted peace, they wouldn't use phosphorous bombs on a civilian population.

I can go on and on. They don't want peace. The Israelis thrive on instability and turmoil in the Middle East. They absolutely love it because it allows them to further their Zionist agenda.

BTW - You're correct that we're fighting the same war and it's because our government kisses their a** and believes they're always right. Period. AIPAC is the root of the problem.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynWjYHP91gA

of course you ignore all that the palestinians have been doing to Israel...

btw..exactly when did Palestine become a country....?

[AmericaFirst]

of course you ignore all that the palestinians have been doing to Israel...

btw..exactly when did Palestine become a country....?



They're not a country...yet. I said they're close. The UN has granted them "non-member observer state" status and that gives them far more rights, like bringing war crimes to the UN's attention, than it did before.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2012/11/30/should-the-un-have-recognized-palestine

What did Israel do immediately following this vote? Started building more illegal settlements and said they won't be recognizing Palestine's new UN status.

"On November 30, Israel approved a plan to build 3,000 more units in East al-Quds (Jerusalem) and the occupied West Bank. On December 3, Israel announced plans to construct 1,600 new illegal settlements in East al-Quds (Jerusalem)."

"The Israeli settlements are considered illegal by the UN and much of the international community. However, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has remained defiant, saying settlement construction is part of Tel Aviv’s policy and will not stop."

http://presstv.com/detail/2012/12/29/280728/britain-warns-israel-over-wb-university/


LOL at Israel and their slave state (Us, unfortunately) saying this new vote will somehow "hinder" the peace process. How? How can actually recognizing Palestine HINDER peace? That's what we want. A two-state solution. The Israelis thrive on instability. They want war to continue in the Middle East and if they have to continue persecuting the Palestinians to reach that goal, have the Mossad carry out a false-flag operation, etc. they'll do it.

[ATLitigator]

Israel is a country, palestine is not but occupies land within and along Israel's borders

palestine bombs and fires mortars at israeli citizens

but this is all Israels fault...

of course, the UN is right about everything they do...

the palestinians do not want peace and two states, they want israel gone

[AmericaFirst]

Israel is a country, palestine is not but occupies land within and along Israel's borders

palestine bombs and fires mortars at israeli citizens

but this is all Israels fault...

of course, the UN is right about everything they do...

the palestinians do not want peace and two states, they want israel gone



Of course it's Israel's fault. Here's how it works.


Israel builds illegal settlements, refuses to allow Palestine to import/export goods by any other method than land, and controls the economy.

Palestinians fight back. They're labeled terrorists.

As far as I'm concerned, they're like the pre-Revolution Americans fighting for their land against the British (Israelis) who continue to oppress them and force them to live under their rule.

The Israelis are committing genocide right now. That map really shows it all. Before long, there won't be any Palestinians to make noise to the UN and that's how the epitome of evil aka the Israelis want it.

[ATLitigator]

Of course it's Israel's fault. Here's how it works.


Israel builds illegal settlements, refuses to allow Palestine to import/export goods by any other method than land, and controls the economy.

Palestinians fight back. They're labeled terrorists.

As far as I'm concerned, they're like the pre-Revolution Americans fighting for their land against the British (Israelis) who continue to oppress them and force them to live under their rule.

The Israelis are committing genocide right now. That map really shows it all. Before long, there won't be any Palestinians to make noise to the UN and that's how the epitome of evil aka the Israelis want it.

and of course there are no palestinian settlements on israeli land...
:embarrased:


btw...the pre-revolution americans were fighting to take BRITISH colonies from great britian....so the palestinians are trying to take Israeli land...

the maps look like the ISRAELIS FOUGHT AND WON THE BATTLES FOR THE LAND

and if you want to talk about the epitome of evil, how about those pre-revolution, post revolution, pre civil war, etc..americans who slaughtered millions of indians because they had the audicity to be on our land before we got here....:jeez:

[Burke]

The Arabs don't recognize Israel as a legitimate state and want to kill all the Jews. Those Arabs have no rights, to land or even to live.

I would support Israel taking over the whole region. The truth is that the Muslims in Israel have more rights than they have in Muslim countries, especially the Muslim women.

[Matthanuf06]

Of course it's Israel's fault. Here's how it works.

Israel builds illegal settlements, refuses to allow Palestine to import/export goods by any other method than land, and controls the economy.

Palestinians fight back. They're labeled terrorists.

As far as I'm concerned, they're like the pre-Revolution Americans fighting for their land against the British (Israelis) who continue to oppress them and force them to live under their rule.

The Israelis are committing genocide right now. That map really shows it all. Before long, there won't be any Palestinians to make noise to the UN and that's how the epitome of evil aka the Israelis want it.

Illegal by what standard?

[Minister_of_Information]

Of course it's Israel's fault. Here's how it works.

Israel builds illegal settlements, refuses to allow Palestine to import/export goods by any other method than land, and controls the economy.

Palestinians fight back. They're labeled terrorists.

As far as I'm concerned, they're like the pre-Revolution Americans fighting for their land against the British (Israelis) who continue to oppress them and force them to live under their rule.

The Israelis are committing genocide right now. That map really shows it all. Before long, there won't be any Palestinians to make noise to the UN and that's how the epitome of evil aka the Israelis want it.

Standard propaganda technique: eliminate context. Which in this case is the protracted unavailability of a negotiating partner willing or able to deliver peace -- or even security. So settlements are a way of maintaining punitive pressure upon this state of affairs. Is every Israeli operating in good faith? No, but it's irrelevant. If the Palestinians dither long enough they are going to run out of territory.

[108]

one thing missing here is the motivation for neoconservatism

it isn't about spreading democracy

its putting friendly regimes into place to further US/West corporate interests...many of whom they have ties with

[Spurffelbow833]

one thing missing here is the motivation for neoconservatism

it isn't about spreading democracy

its putting friendly regimes into place to further US/West corporate interests...many of whom they have ties with

Winner winner chicken dinner.

[Spurffelbow833]

As far as I'm concerned, they're like the pre-Revolution Americans fighting for their land against the British (Israelis) who continue to oppress them and force them to live under their rule.

Actually, they're more like the Native Americans.

[Minister_of_Information]

one thing missing here is the motivation for neoconservatism

it isn't about spreading democracy

its putting friendly regimes into place to further US/West corporate interests...many of whom they have ties with

You've completely mischaracterized the neoconservative animus. They are, in large measure, former leftist radicals with a libertarian bent. It would be more forthright if you simply labeled them as apostates from your camp that now serve Satan.

[chemgator]

Neocon has and always will be the code word for Zionist aka the Israel Firsters. Romney was one as well. We haven't had a true Republican in office since Reagan. They'll continue to run this country into the ground while making us pay for their wars in the Middle East which do nothing for us but everything for Israel. Until they're removed and the people wake up to this nonsense, we'll continue to get destroyed from within. Krauthammer and Kristol are two of the worst Zionists. They'd like nothing more than to see us invade Iran and get thousands more of our troops killed in a no-win war while also killing thousands of Iranian civilians.

I used to enjoy watching Fox News until they became the Zionist/Neocon mouthpiece. Unfortunately, I don't think the American people are intelligent enough as a whole to wake up to this undermining and it'll be too late if they do.

Got to increase that debt limit so we can send more weapons to the Middle East. Oh, and the American taxpayer will be on the hook for the bill.
What a load of crap. Israel is an extremely small part of our foreign policy--almost inconsequential. We have yet to send large numbers of troops into the ME because of or on behalf of Israel. Oil (including the free market's access to it, as well as what is done with the profits from selling it) is a hundred times the driver of policy that Israel is. If we invade Iran, it will be because of the 60,000 nuclear centrifuges that we've been helping them to buy. (And yes, Reagan supported Israel as well.) Maybe you need to wake up.

[chemgator]

Who? China? China is a paper tiger. It will collapse from within. All that repression of its citizenry will be its downfall. The people will rise up and demand respect, food, freedom and demand less military spending.
After a few Chinese people rise up and get shot down, the rest will get the message. The demands of the people will not be the downfall of China. Poor economic policy and central planning (which is virtually impossible when a country is growing 8-12% a year) will be what drags them down. They have built superhighways to ghost cities that have no population. All major cities have dozens of gigantic buildings going up, and the economy is not strong enough to support them.

Their other problem is infrastructure and regulation. Their infrastructure will not stand the test of time, because they built so fast that they didn't have time to do it right (and much of the spending went towards corruption). Concrete for HSR was built with low-grade fly ash, which will fall apart much faster than high-grade flay ash would. Their inability to regulate their industries successfully means that the Chinese consumers have little faith in their producers, so they buy western goods if they can afford them. Chinese mothers are deathly afraid to feed Chinese formula to their babies, so they buy Nestle or other western brands. Inability to regulate also impacts heavy industries, including power generation, and will lead to excessive pollution that will cause major health problems as well as destroy the environment for agriculture. The country's dust pollution levels has already caused a significant reduction in the amounts of rain that China receives. That is very bad news, considering that the ice cover on the Himalayan mountain range (which feeds all of China's rivers) is expected to be completely melted by 2037. No rivers = no fresh water = no economy.

Your biggest fear should be that we will have to bail out China. As long as a new Obama is in office in the 2030's, we will be bailing out China. They are too big to fail, you know.

[Minister_of_Information]

Himilayan ice melted by 2037...

[Spurffelbow833]

You've completely mischaracterized the neoconservative animus. They are, in large measure, former leftist radicals with a libertarian bent. It would be more forthright if you simply labeled them as apostates from your camp that now serve Satan.

There is nothing libertarian about neocons. libertarianism (capitalization omitted to distinguish the philosophy from the political party) is in essence opposition to the initiation of force to achieve political goals. Foreign policy counts. They aren't freedom lovers in principle or in reality if they want to crap on the rest of the world and don't care what happens here. We are all forced to pay with taxation and inflation for their excellent adventures abroad.

[Minister_of_Information]

There is nothing libertarian about neocons. libertarianism (capitalization omitted to distinguish the philosophy from the political party) is in essence opposition to the initiation of force to achieve political goals. Foreign policy counts. They aren't freedom lovers in principle or in reality if they want to crap on the rest of the world and don't care what happens here. We are all forced to pay with taxation and inflation for their excellent adventures abroad.

In the case of a despot isn't it safe to say that force has already been initiated?

[108]

You've completely mischaracterized the neoconservative animus. They are, in large measure, former leftist radicals with a libertarian bent. It would be more forthright if you simply labeled them as apostates from your camp that now serve Satan.

examples of "leftist radicals" within today's neoconservatives?

[co_gator89]

Another testament to neocon idiocy. More of those Iraqis we "liberated" just got killed.

http://www.chron.com/news/world/article/Blasts-aimed-at-Iraqi-Shiites-police-kill-23-4156463.php

Hurray spreading democracy!

[Sterned]

Is g8orbill the most conservative poster on the board? Probably a tea party activist?

Bill's what they call a Teahadist.

[AmericaFirst]

What a load of crap. Israel is an extremely small part of our foreign policy--almost inconsequential. We have yet to send large numbers of troops into the ME because of or on behalf of Israel. Oil (including the free market's access to it, as well as what is done with the profits from selling it) is a hundred times the driver of policy that Israel is. If we invade Iran, it will be because of the 60,000 nuclear centrifuges that we've been helping them to buy. (And yes, Reagan supported Israel as well.) Maybe you need to wake up.



LOL...Israel a small part of America's foreign policy? That is so off it's beyond hilarious that you would even post it. We can thank the Israelis for their "intelligence" on Saddam and those WMDs. The Israelis told us they were there. They weren't. Surprise surprise, eh? The Israelis have been trying to pull us into their conflict with Iran for years now. if we ever do anything militarily against Iran, it will be for Israel, period.

[northgagator]

LOL...Israel a small part of America's foreign policy? That is so off it's beyond hilarious that you would even post it. We can thank the Israelis for their "intelligence" on Saddam and those WMDs. The Israelis told us they were there. They weren't. Surprise surprise, eh? The Israelis have been trying to pull us into their conflict with Iran for years now. if we ever do anything militarily against Iran, it will be for Israel, period.

Was the withdrawal of support for Mumbarak that resulted in the Muslim Brotherhood taking control of Egypt in the best interest if Israel?

Was the taking out Gaddafi in the best interest of Israel?

Is the aiding of the Syrian rebels in the best interest of Israel?

Was the invest if millions into the Brazilian offshore oil fields in the best interest of Israel?

Was the continuing of the war in Afghanistan in the best interest of Israel?

Also..,,if Iran were to close off the Hormuz Strait would a military respond be a sign that we support Israel.

[chemgator]

LOL...Israel a small part of America's foreign policy? That is so off it's beyond hilarious that you would even post it. We can thank the Israelis for their "intelligence" on Saddam and those WMDs. The Israelis told us they were there. They weren't. Surprise surprise, eh? The Israelis have been trying to pull us into their conflict with Iran for years now. if we ever do anything militarily against Iran, it will be for Israel, period.
So naive . . . Which Israelis told us WMD were in Iraq? I don't remember getting that memo. Israel has no conflict with Iran, other than Ahmedjinad's crazy talk and clandestine support of Hamas. Israel has a much bigger conflict with Syria, which is a much more active supporter of political and terrorist organizations in the Palestinian territories. And Syria smuggles weapons through Lebanon. If there is one foreign country that Israel would like to vanish from the face of the earth, it's Syria. Why haven't we invaded Syria?

It's beyond hilarious that you would have so little understanding of the world around you. You are obviously parroting Palestinian talking points from some crazy anti-Zionist group or another. "Polly want a cracker?" Try thinking for yourself some time.

[AmericaFirst]

So naive . . . Which Israelis told us WMD were in Iraq? I don't remember getting that memo. Israel has no conflict with Iran, other than Ahmedjinad's crazy talk and clandestine support of Hamas. Israel has a much bigger conflict with Syria, which is a much more active supporter of political and terrorist organizations in the Palestinian territories. And Syria smuggles weapons through Lebanon. If there is one foreign country that Israel would like to vanish from the face of the earth, it's Syria. Why haven't we invaded Syria?

It's beyond hilarious that you would have so little understanding of the world around you. You are obviously parroting Palestinian talking points from some crazy anti-Zionist group or another. "Polly want a cracker?" Try thinking for yourself some time.



Right here. The Israelis "misread" the Iraqi threat. That's code for they let thousands of Americans die in a war that benefited them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3294865.stm

If you haven't noticed, our politicians have been floating Syria invasion scenarios and have said so under the guise of Syria using "chemical weapons" on the civilians. Get back to me if they use those weapons and we don't intervene...with more US taxpayer money.

As for Lebanon, they have the most religiously diverse country in the Middle East. I always get a kick out of those that talk about them as if they're a terrorist state simply because Hezbollah operates out of Lebanon, and they have very few seats in the Parliament. If you want to a visit a great country with history, diversity, etc. you visit Lebanon. Not Israel.

Learn a thing or two and you might see why Israel is hated across the world. If they can suck us into a war against Iran, they'll do it. If Romney got elected, we'd probably be there now doing their dirty work for them.

[co_gator89]

I don't know how much the Iraq war benefited Israel. If anything it benefited Iran as we took out one of their most hostile, hated enemies in Saddam and replaced him with much friendlier Shias who let them run their weapons and supplies into Syria and Hezbollah territory in Lebanon.

Yeah, that was totally worth the billions of dollars and 4,500 soldiers we lost there, right?

[DeanMeadGator]

The result of the 2000 election was a neocon coup. Dubya probably didn't know what a neocon was till he became their puppet and invaded Iraq for them. Yes, I would say they are dangerous.

Dangerous philosophy:

1. Cut spending

2. Reject spending that will raise the deficit from $16 trillion to $20 trillion at the end of the next 4 years.

3. Refuse to steal from our children and grandchildren [in our case, 6] in order to pay for our unwillingness and outright refusal to stop spending their money.

4. Believe in the economic system that made America great.

5. Realize that spending huge amounts more than you make will lead to economic ruin.

6. Believe that we should give our children a better life than we have.

7. Believe that taxing the rich sounds good, but only results in enough to pay for about 7 days of government spending.

8. Realize that Sam Walton and Steve Jobs were rich, but created an enormous number of jobs and the sale of products that Americans want.

"Neocon" is a stupid term that, if applied to minorities, would be repulsive.

Spend, spend, spend, spend. That is the key to success. Sorry - I reject that flawed philosophy.

Signed, old conservative who values the future of our children, grandchildren and country.

To be sure, I grew up in a generation which was taught that if you had 50 cents in your piggy bank, you could not spend $10.00. You saved enough to buy $10.00 worth of stuff when you had $10.00.

[chemgator]

I view the neoconservatives as a group of people that were in power with GWB, primarily led by Cheney and Rumsfeld, but including a few others. Cheney and Rumsfeld have no hope of ever being in power again. They seemed to believe that U.S. military power would solve all foreign problems, without the need for diplomacy, or economic action. They based this concept on the idea that the U.S. has a stronger military than anyone else, so why not use it to vanquish the "bad guys"? They also saw no problem with increasing debt and expanding gov't, something they have in common with the current administration. They were wrong, just like Obama is wrong. Hopefully we can reverse the slide of Democracy into Idiocracy in 2016.

[chemgator]

Right here. The Israelis "misread" the Iraqi threat. That's code for they let thousands of Americans die in a war that benefited them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3294865.stm

If you haven't noticed, our politicians have been floating Syria invasion scenarios and have said so under the guise of Syria using "chemical weapons" on the civilians. Get back to me if they use those weapons and we don't intervene...with more US taxpayer money.

As for Lebanon, they have the most religiously diverse country in the Middle East. I always get a kick out of those that talk about them as if they're a terrorist state simply because Hezbollah operates out of Lebanon, and they have very few seats in the Parliament. If you want to a visit a great country with history, diversity, etc. you visit Lebanon. Not Israel.

Learn a thing or two and you might see why Israel is hated across the world. If they can suck us into a war against Iran, they'll do it. If Romney got elected, we'd probably be there now doing their dirty work for them.
What a joke! Nowhere in your little article did it say that the Israelis were the primary source for intell on Iraqi WMD. All it said was they "contributed" information to the U.S. If you think that we would go to war based on Israeli intelligence on a country it doesn't share a border with and has limited access to, you might need to go back to school. Did we also go to war with North Korea and Vietnam based on Israeli intelligence?

I never said that Lebanon was a terrorist state. Maybe you should take some reading comprehension classes. While you're at it, take a class on the history of Israel--they are not without their share of historical events and sites, and they have the good fortune to have those sites preserved in modern times by the Israelis, who do a far better job than most ME countries under much more challenging circumstances.

[AmericaFirst]

What a joke! Nowhere in your little article did it say that the Israelis were the primary source for intell on Iraqi WMD. All it said was they "contributed" information to the U.S. If you think that we would go to war based on Israeli intelligence on a country it doesn't share a border with and has limited access to, you might need to go back to school. Did we also go to war with North Korea and Vietnam based on Israeli intelligence?

I never said that Lebanon was a terrorist state. Maybe you should take some reading comprehension classes. While you're at it, take a class on the history of Israel--they are not without their share of historical events and sites, and they have the good fortune to have those sites preserved in modern times by the Israelis, who do a far better job than most ME countries under much more challenging circumstances.


My goodness you are reaching. The Israelis were some of the main intelligence on Saddam and WMDs. Period. Of course, we had our own idiots providing false info as well but they had a hand in it as I stated. Read up on AIPAC and you'll understand why Israel is a problem in the USA. Here, I'll get you started with their former president that was caught telling an undercover agent that he tells our politicians anything they want to hear in order to get more money for Israel.

Have any idea how despicable this quote below is? Now remember that it's this organization that is pushing the Israeli agenda in America.

"I got, besides the $3 billion, you know they're looking for the Jewish votes, and I'll tell him whatever he wants to hear.... Besides the $10 billion in loan guarantees which was a fabulous thing, $3 billion in foreign, in military aid, and I got almost a billion dollars in other goodies that people don't even know about.... I have friends on the Clinton campaign, close associates.... I've known Bill for seven, eight years from the National Governors Association. I know him on a personal basis.... One of my friends is Hillary Clinton's scheduler, one of my officer's daughters works there. We gave two employees from AIPAC leave of absence to work on the campaign. I mean, we have a dozen people in the campaign, in the headquarters, in Little Rock, and they're all going to get big jobs.... I also work with a think tank, the Washington Institute. I have Michael Mandelbaum and Martin Indyk being foreign policy advisers... Steve Spiegel.... We have Bill Clinton's ear. I talked to Bill Clinton. He's going to be very good for us.... A girl who worked for me at AIPAC stood up for them at their wedding. Hillary lived with her. I mean we have those relationships.... Susan Thomases, who's in there, worked with me on the Bradley campaign. We worked together for 13 years. She's in there with the family. They stay with her when they come to New York. One of my officers, Monte Friedkin, is one of the biggest fund-raisers for them. I mean, I have people like that all over the country.... He's said he's going to help us. He's got something in his heart for the Jews, he has Jewish friends.... Clinton is the best guy for us.... We're just negotiating. We're more interested right now in the secretary of state and the secretary of National Security Agency.... I've got a list. But I really can't go through it. I'm not allowed to talk about it.... We'll have access." - AIPAC's Former President David Steiner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Steiner_(AIPAC)

[chemgator]

I'm reaching? No, YOU'RE reaching. If you can prove that Israel was the primary source of intell on Iraq, do it. Are you in the CIA offices right now?

The leaders of half the countries in the world will tell our politicians what they want to hear for a shot at a few billion dollars in aid money. Israel does not have the corner on that market. Did you just fall off the turnip truck by any chance? Once you've had a chance to travel a bit and see the world, you might see things differently. Maybe you wouldn't faint at the sound of a lobbying group talking about access to politicians. For now, just try to get out of your parents' basement and go for a walk and get some fresh air, maybe read a newspaper. Stop reading your Palestinian propaganda for a couple weeks, see what happens.

[Burke]

The fact is that the Israelis wanted us to attack Iran, not Iraq or Afghanistan, which they claimed were small potatoes compared to Iran.

And they were right.

[Minister_of_Information]

examples of "leftist radicals" within today's neoconservatives?

Irving Kristol, Daniel Bell, Jeanne Kirkpatrick, and David Horowitz are some examples of neoconservatives who began on the radical left. Trotsky seems in particular to have been an early influence for a number of neoconservative converts.

[AmericaFirst]

I'm reaching? No, YOU'RE reaching. If you can prove that Israel was the primary source of intell on Iraq, do it. Are you in the CIA offices right now?

The leaders of half the countries in the world will tell our politicians what they want to hear for a shot at a few billion dollars in aid money. Israel does not have the corner on that market. Did you just fall off the turnip truck by any chance? Once you've had a chance to travel a bit and see the world, you might see things differently. Maybe you wouldn't faint at the sound of a lobbying group talking about access to politicians. For now, just try to get out of your parents' basement and go for a walk and get some fresh air, maybe read a newspaper. Stop reading your Palestinian propaganda for a couple weeks, see what happens.



LOL...so funny. I feel bad for those like yourself that don't get it even when it's staring you in the face.

[AmericaFirst]

The fact is that the Israelis wanted us to attack Iran, not Iraq or Afghanistan, which they claimed were small potatoes compared to Iran.

And they were right.



The Israelis can do it themselves. They have a huge military. No reason for us to be over there.

[rpmGator]

I give the green light to Israel to go after any nation they want, without us.

Any nation that wants war, should just do it while we sit this one out.