Are vegetarians crazy?

[LeafUF]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22676203#

According to this study, they just may be. Now we just need to find out if you have to be crazy to be a vegetarian or if being a vegetarian makes you crazy.

Abstract
BACKGROUND:

The present study investigated associations between vegetarian diet and mental disorders.
METHODS:

Participants were drawn from the representative sample of the German Health Interview and Examination Survey and its Mental Health Supplement (GHS-MHS). Completely vegetarian (N = 54) and predominantly vegetarian (N = 190) participants were compared with non-vegetarian participants (N = 3872) and with a non-vegetarian socio-demographically matched subsample (N = 242).
RESULTS:

Vegetarians displayed elevated prevalence rates for depressive disorders, anxiety disorders and somatoform disorders. Due to the matching procedure, the findings cannot be explained by socio-demographic characteristics of vegetarians (e.g. higher rates of females, predominant residency in urban areas, high proportion of singles). The analysis of the respective ages at adoption of a vegetarian diet and onset of a mental disorder showed that the adoption of the vegetarian diet tends to follow the onset of mental disorders.
CONCLUSIONS:

Vegetarian diet is associated with an elevated risk of mental disorders. However, there was no evidence for a causal role of vegetarian diet in the etiology of mental disorders.

[The_Ultimate_Gator]

No, but they just can't appreciate a good mutton, lettuce and tomato sandwich.

[Dreamliner]

They do seem to be violent and aggressive. Wasn't Hitler a vegetarian ?

[LeafUF]

Hitler was both a vegetarian and a non-drinker. Which may be why I don't trust people that don't eat meat or drink alcohol.

[your_perfect_enemy]

I'd be anxious or depressed too if I didnt get to eat steak.

I think I know what I'm going to grill now this weekend

[fubar1]

I honestly think many vegetarians/vegans, etc are just too uptight. Worry too much about things they honestly can't control, which leads down the path of an ultimate unhealthy end to one's life.

But that really has nothing to do with deciding if a vegetarian lifestyle is healthier than the alternative, which I believe it is.

It just speaks to stress being the ultimate killer, and trumping even the healthiest dietary habits.

[Dreamliner]

The healthiest dietary habit is probably keeping calories in check, regardless food choices. .

[LeafUF]

I honestly think many vegetarians/vegans, etc are just too uptight. Worry too much about things they honestly can't control, which leads down the path of an ultimate unhealthy end to one's life.

But that really has nothing to do with deciding if a vegetarian lifestyle is healthier than the alternative, which I believe it is.

It just speaks to stress being the ultimate killer, and trumping even the healthiest dietary habits.

You should probably take a look at my other thread on why the definition of health sucks. Also, there is no telling if stress is the cause of the higher rates of mental disorders among the vegetarian population. It could be any number of things other than stress. Unless there is a study showing that the vegetarian population is more stressed than the general population I see no reason for it to be the sole cause here.

[rpmGator]

I grow organic fruit and veggies for a hobby. The amount and types of pesticides in most store bought veggies are not something that goes on the label.

Soy, was invented by monks to lower their sex drive as they weren't supposed to get any. It raises estrogen levels in both men and women. Cancer prolbems in women and sex drive problems in men, are the reasons I don't touch the stuff.

Anyhow, my mango's are better than any I have bought, and I know there is nothing in them other that what is supposed to be there.

[LeafUF]

I grow organic fruit and veggies for a hobby. The amount and types of pesticides in most store bought veggies are not something that goes on the label.

Soy, was invented by monks to lower their sex drive as they weren't supposed to get any. It raises estrogen levels in both men and women. Cancer prolbems in women and sex drive problems in men, are the reasons I don't touch the stuff.

Anyhow, my mango's are better than any I have bought, and I know there is nothing in them other that what is supposed to be there.

The study iirc has nothing to do with organics just vegetarians. Not eating pesticides is probably a good idea if you can afford it. Just eat a steak once in a while too. Or if you are like me once or twice a week.

[Dreamliner]

The study iirc has nothing to do with organics just vegetarians. Not eating pesticides is probably a good idea if you can afford it. Just eat a steak once in a while too. Or if you are like me once or twice a week.

Plus, be sure and eat the face for extra protein (and to piss off the vegans).

BTW, leading trainer Jason Ferruggia has confessed he is no longer a vegan.

[rpmGator]

It's cheaper to grow organicly as I don't have to buy a lot of crap, to cure problems I can fix in better ways.

I can also do the same thing and raise my own meats, if I could get the wife to move out to my land. That isn't going to happen, however.

My original point being, vegetarians who don't eat organic get way too many chemicals in their salad. It is almost impossible to grow peaches without spraying them daily or weekly with chemicals.

However, I can grow nectarines without any spray at all...

Even meat with its corn fed, hormone injected product, is not as good for you as the grass fed beef.

Soy isn't a good choice to replace meat, unless you are a monk.

[Dreamliner]

Americans are ingesting more chemicals than ever.

Americans are living longer than ever.

Therefore, chemicals are extending our lives.

[rpmGator]

More cancer than ever killing kids under ten also... but focus on the cure, not the cause.

Might be the better health care that is keeping people alive.

It sure isn't injesting poison that is doing it.

Besides, if you think about it, most of the old people, didn't have the chems in their foods during their youth as many weren't even invented yet.

[Dreamliner]

More cancer than ever killing kids under ten also... but focus on the cure, not the cause.

Might be the better health care that is keeping people alive.

It sure isn't injesting poison that is doing it.

Besides, if you think about it, most of the old people, didn't have the chems in their foods during their youth as many weren't even invented yet.

Hey, if you get to make your sloppy correlations, then why can't I make my sloppy correlations.

FYI: I'm standing against food fear and food hysteria. Besides, we're all going to die and food tastes yummy, especially when it comes in a can or a package. Preservatives are preserving us.

[LeafUF]

My original point being, vegetarians who don't eat organic get way too many chemicals in their salad. It is almost impossible to grow peaches without spraying them daily or weekly with chemicals.

rpm, I think what you do with growing your own food is great and I think its best to keep unnecessary chemicals out of your diets as well. That just doesn't seem very relevant to this thread where the study shows higher prevalence of mental disorder among the vegetarian population. There is no evidence that says its because they are not eating organic or that going vegetarian and not organic causes you to ingest more chemicals than a non-organic meat eater who is also ingesting a lot of chemicals.

So basically, I think the validity of organics is a good conversation that maybe requires its own thread. When I lived close to a weekly farmers market I would regularly buy organic vegetables and humanely raised grass fed beef, and eggs from farmers in Virginia. Unfortunately, that stuff is expensive and not always easily accessible.

[Dreamliner]

Want to die early ? Don't become a natural eating guru then.

[rpmGator]

The food I grow taste's better than that packaged crap you think is yummy. For one, you can't find the types of fruit I grow as commercial industry is not concerned with more than quantity and fitting it into a box.

The people who first grew the ugly tomato lost over a million bucks as they weren't allowed to sell it, as it didn't fit the box all tomato's had to conform too.

So you eat what fits the box, not what is the more tasty or healthy for you.

I grow barbados cherries, otherwise known as acerola on your bottle of vitamin C. One cherry has as much C as an orange. You won't find them fresh, in most places.

The addition of many chemicals in food, may have a lot to do with your opinion on why eating veggies alone, can cause problems.

I will die also, but after a more tasty meal than your last one.

For every person you can come up with that has died from eating better, I can name ten who died from cancer. Eating the poison and thinking it is a better way, is why I would never take your advice on any health subject.

[Dreamliner]

The food I grow taste's better than that packaged crap you think is yummy. For one, you can't find the types of fruit I grow as commercial industry is not concerned with more than quantity and fitting it into a box.

The people who first grew the ugly tomato lost over a million bucks as they weren't allowed to sell it, as it didn't fit the box all tomato's had to conform too.

So you eat what fits the box, not what is the more tasty or healthy for you.

I grow barbados cherries, otherwise known as acerola on your bottle of vitamin C. One cherry has as much C as an orange. You won't find them fresh, in most places.

The addition of many chemicals in food, may have a lot to do with your opinion on why eating veggies alone, can cause problems.

I will die also, but after a more tasty meal than your last one.

For every person you can come up with that has died from eating better, I can name ten who died from cancer. Eating the poison and thinking it is a better way, is why I would never take your advice on any health subject.

I doubt that your food tastes better than the packaged food that you eat. I have good friends who grow their own. I eat and enjoy theirs. I particularly enjoy their tomatoes. But I ain't giving up mine either. Plus, it's hard to beat the convenience.

There is arguably more evidence that chemicals are helping us than killing us.

I also stand against effete food snobbery. But no, I don't laugh when I see the natural eaters and vegans die early. I think it's sad because they might have lived at least as long also enjoying the tasty packaged stuff they were deathly afraid would kill them (before they died).

[rpmGator]

If you can't buy what I grow, you have no clue what taste's better. I do as I have tried both....

Fairchild mango's just kick ass and when you find one to buy, jump on it. Only one place in Florida sells them, I just walk out to my tree. More convenient that cranking my truck to go shopping, for sure.

I also just planted a Tebow mango. It is a cross of the best tasting mango grown in Florida, with another that increases yield. Way more things to eat than what you have in any store.

[Dreamliner]

If you can't buy what I grow, you have no clue what taste's better. I do as I have tried both....

Fairchild mango's just kick ass and when you find one to buy, jump on it. Only one place in Florida sells them, I just walk out to my tree. More convenient that cranking my truck to go shopping, for sure.

I also just planted a Tebow mango. It is a cross of the best tasting mango grown in Florida, with another that increases yield. Way more things to eat than what you have in any store.

Food fanatics seriously need to make up their minds. On the one hand, they insist that their homegrown food tastes better than the 'packaged crap' you're eating. On the other hand, it is a staple argument of theirs that processed food is so addicting because 'evil food manufacturers' have found a way to excite the brain's pleasure centers in a way that Mother Nature can't.

[scrappygator]

The main stress I see in vegetarians/vegans is at a restaurant worrying the $hit out of wait staff if they are SURE this was cooked in olive oil, has no dairy products, the french fries were cooked in peanut oil ad nauseum. With a vegan yesterday that did all of this and then ate some of our unvegan appetizer anyway. If was the waitress I would have slapped her.

[Dreamliner]

The main stress I see in vegetarians/vegans is at a restaurant worrying the $hit out of wait staff if they are SURE this was cooked in olive oil, has no dairy products, the french fries were cooked in peanut oil ad nauseum. With a vegan yesterday that did all of this and then ate some of our unvegan appetizer anyway. If was the waitress I would have slapped her.

Heard a vegan author interviewed on NPR the other day. She was actually a breath of fresh air, not such a fanatic at all. She suggested gradual adjustments to veggies. And confessed that she herself was an adherent of the "10% rule", meaning she didn't stress out over whether her restaurant veggies were cooked with animal products.

[rpmGator]

Please don't get away from teaching bicep curls, as your food opinion is quite dangerous to many.

Preservatives keeping people preserved is the worst food advice, I have ever heard.

For one, sodium is one of the most often used preservatives. For those that see their blood pressure increased by over use of salt, hidden sodium in foods can kill.

Add in strokes, which women suffer from also, and your advice to eat poorly is dangerous to many.

When you count sodium mg's, you will pass your limit before you ever put a speck of salt on anything. Your packaged crap will taste good, but that comes with a price.

I made my own Datil pepper sauce for my bar-b-q last night, grow my own peppers. I doubt your 7-11 diet is better for you. On taste, to each his own and if junk food is what you prefer, so be it. I will stick to making my own foods, growing what I can, looking before I buy.

You might want to check how many get sick from food sources each year. So much so, the FDA has changed tactics to prevent, instead of react to food born illness.

Your advice on health, is something most should take with a grain of salt.

[Dreamliner]

Please don't get away from teaching bicep curls, as your food opinion is quite dangerous to many.

Preservatives keeping people preserved is the worst food advice, I have ever heard.

For one, sodium is one of the most often used preservatives. For those that see their blood pressure increased by over use of salt, hidden sodium in foods can kill.

Add in strokes, which women suffer from also, and your advice to eat poorly is dangerous to many.

When you count sodium mg's, you will pass your limit before you ever put a speck of salt on anything. Your packaged crap will taste good, but that comes with a price.

I made my own Datil pepper sauce for my bar-b-q last night, grow my own peppers. I doubt your 7-11 diet is better for you. On taste, to each his own and if junk food is what you prefer, so be it. I will stick to making my own foods, growing what I can, looking before I buy.

You might want to check how many get sick from food sources each year. So much so, the FDA has changed tactics to prevent, instead of react to food born illness.

Your advice on health, is something most should take with a grain of salt.

Thanks for reminding me that, based on recent studies, the forebodings on salt are to be taken with a grain of salt. Additionally, you likely missed the new studies that showed that organic produce is no more nutritious than non-organic produce.

You're a regular blowhard. First, I don't teach biceps curls. Rather, I teach them that two miles walking a day is all they need to make them strong as a horse. *chortles*

Neither do I advise them on health. Rather, knowing that they are going to die (you do know you're going to die, don't you ?), and that food is yummy, they learn to savor smaller amounts of the foods they enjoy, they lose weight, their health markers improve, and then their doctors scratch their heads and inquire, "Have you gone organic ?"

Yes, that was a little warranted sarcasm on my part.

[UFNut]

Thanks for reminding me that, based on recent studies, the forebodings on salt are to be taken with a grain of salt. Additionally, you likely missed the new studies that showed that organic produce is no more nutritious than non-organic produce.

You're a regular blowhard. First, I don't teach biceps curls. Rather, I teach them that two miles walking a day is all they need to make them strong as a horse. *chortles*

Neither do I advise them on health. Rather, knowing that they are going to die (you do know you're going to die, don't you ?), and that food is yummy, they learn to savor smaller amounts of the foods they enjoy, they lose weight, their health markers improve, and then their doctors scratch their heads and inquire, "Have you gone organic ?"

Yes, that was a little warranted sarcasm on my part.

Perhaps organic isn't more nutritious, but it's likely to be cleaner/safer. Though I'm aware that isn't always the case. Just like a local market where I live sells something that says wild salmon on the front of the glass, but on the sticker after they wrap your meat it says farmed Scottish Salmon. :lie:

[Dreamliner]

Perhaps organic isn't more nutritious, but it's likely to be cleaner/safer. Though I'm aware that isn't always the case. Just like a local market where I live sells something that says wild salmon on the front of the glass, but on the sticker after they wrap your meat it says farmed Scottish Salmon. :lie:

As memory serves, in a compilation of 300 studies, only three studies showed pesticide residue levels in excess of government standards.

And I don't recall that they even washed the produce beforehand as a typical consumer would.

[kkg8r]

Wow. Crazy thread.
Here is where Dream and I disagree. Our food system in America is completely unhealthy. Having lived overseas for quite some time, the difference in their food versus ours is glaringly different. From shelf life of breads/veggies to the color of egg yolks, food there is simply produced better. Now, do I think that this food is causing us to be fat? Not really... that's our fat asses eating too much and playing Xbox.

If you think meeting "government standards" means something, then you're as crazy as vegetarians. (See what I did there? Back on the topic.)

[Dreamliner]

Sure, but who sets the standards ? I know people who strongly maintain:

*sugar is killing us

*grains are killing us

*red meat is killing us

*eating fewer than nine servings of veggies is killing us

*less nitrogen in the soil is killing us

*too little potassium is killing us

*too much salt is killing us

:jeez:



*too little boric acid is killing us

*too many Omega 6's are killing us

[Dreamliner]

Alarm bells were sounded, on this board, about rat poison in artificial sweeteners, based on rat studies.

This is why I counsel all my clients to strive for fewer than 59 cans a day of diet soda.

[kkg8r]

yeah, but that's not everyone. I think that there are too many hormones &chemicals in our food. That is all. Sugar is good. Especially when it comes in the form of wine (ok, and cupcakes). Red meat is good, but I buy organic and grass fed.

I also don't like how many genetically modified foods there are our there. How long does it take the human species to evolve?

[LeafUF]

I evolved just this morning.

[Dreamliner]

Both the additives and evolutionary arguments just seem a little squishy and pseudo-scientific to me. Recall that it was argued that we haven't evolved sufficiently to accommodate grains, which is why we're not as healthy as our paleolithic forebears ... even though their average lifespan was something like thirty years.

But you may be onto something nonetheless. Clearly Americans are not interested in eating less, moving more and simplifying their lives so as to reduce stress. But maybe they'll be up for avoiding those fake blueberries in packaged muffins that are said to be killing us. :wink:

Seriously, I have an acquaintance who's so fat that she waddles and she's pestering everybody she knows to take leucine tablets.

[UFNut]

Alarm bells were sounded, on this board, about rat poison in artificial sweeteners, based on rat studies.

This is why I counsel all my clients to strive for fewer than 59 cans a day of diet soda.

Lol, it'll be tough but I will try dream.

I recently read that all coca cola products contain trace amounts of cocaine (which is actually true, due to use of the plant extract for flavor) also, drugs are bad mkay.

[mamag8ter]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22676203#

According to this study, they just may be. Now we just need to find out if you have to be crazy to be a vegetarian or if being a vegetarian makes you crazy.

Lol Leaf. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?:huh:

[mamag8ter]

I honestly think many vegetarians/vegans, etc are just too uptight. Worry too much about things they honestly can't control, which leads down the path of an ultimate unhealthy end to one's life.

But that really has nothing to do with deciding if a vegetarian lifestyle is healthier than the alternative, which I believe it is.

It just speaks to stress being the ultimate killer, and trumping even the healthiest dietary habits.

Well now that is really a FUBAR.

[ATL_Gator]

For one, sodium is one of the most often used preservatives. For those that see their blood pressure increased by over use of salt, hidden sodium in foods can kill.

What I can't figure out is how humans survived before electricity and electrically driven refrigeration cycles were so common.

Maybe we didn't. Maybe all the salt and sugar used in preserving food back then lead to high blood pressure and we didn't know that was why we were dying so "young" (relative to today). ????

[jhenderson251]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22676203#

According to this study, they just may be. Now we just need to find out if you have to be crazy to be a vegetarian or if being a vegetarian makes you crazy.

As someone currently in the process of converting to a largely vegan diet, there is strong scientific research that backs up the health benefits of consuming less meat. Dr. T. Colin Campbell's The China Study provides some pretty compelling evidence both towards the health benefits of a low to zero-meat and dairy diet, and towards the extreme efforts that the Food Industry in America goes in order to muddy the water and keep their machine running.

I still appreciate a great pork tenderloin or roasted turkey, and I would have no problem with eating the meat if the animals were raised and killed in a remotely humane fashion. But once you've seen a pig screaming and trying to swim out of a tub of boiling water, or employees twisting off newborn piglets' genitals with their fingers (it's cheaper than anesthesia or procedural castration), or workers throwing live baby chicks into a giant grinder, it kind of sours you on the commercial meat industry. None of these three examples are extreme cases; they're very typical operating procedures for most "meat factories."

Once I can track down some local farms that provide meat from animals that I can trust aren't subjected to unnecessary torture, I'll happily go back to incorporating meat into my diet.

[LeafUF]

Yea when I sent this to a recently vegetarian friend of mine she of course said this is the opposite of what she reads. Similar to what you are saying about the health benefits of less meat to which I find anything I have read not very convincing. As for the cruelty to animals I totally understand if you are uncomfortable with it and choose to not support it in that way. In fact this is good, you seem to not be crazy at the moment. Can you report back if you become so once you are fully converted to a vegetarian lifestyle?

[jhenderson251]

I doubt I'll ever convert fully; I don't want my eating habits to become a job. Like I said, once I find a meat supply that operates in a humane and ethical fashion, I'll be fine with eating some meat, eggs, and/or dairy on a daily basis.

It's more of a pursuit to reduce meat consumption to reasonable levels. The average American diet is roughly 60% meat or animal products (i.e., dairy & eggs), 30% processed grains, and less than 10% unprocessed fruits, nuts, and vegetables. I would simply like to recalibrate so that fruits and green veggies make up closer to 1/3 of my food intake.

Regarding the health benefits, Campbell is a distinguished nutritional biochemist from Cornell. I would recommend at least browsing the wikipedia page about his book. I don't buy everything he espouses, but he provides some pretty strong proof behind (1) strong correlations between dairy intake and the development of Type 1 Diabetes in infants and (2) animal cholesterol's strong links to a wide assortment of cancers.

[ATL_Gator]

From what I understand and have read... "The China Study" is just wrong. Filled with errors and omissions. At it's best, I see "The China Study" as an example of incomplete scientific and statistical analysis. At worst, I view Campbell as an all out liar advancing his personal agenda by blinding people with complicated numbers and statistics while leaving out the parts that destroy his theory.

[ATL_Gator]

I would mention that I don't disagree with eating more fruits, veggies, and nuts over meats and grains.

In fact, it is my personal theory (with no scientific evidence to back it up other than my own looks at nutritional content)... out of veggies, fruits, and nuts... Veggies should be consumed the MOST. In general, veggies contain a lot of nutrients and deliver it with less sugar (and calories from sugar).

[LeafUF]

Same as ATL, I dont have any problem with people trying to eat more fruits, veggies and nuts and less meats. Just dont like the China Study as your justification, the science behind it is so bad other scientists are embarrassed. You can find plenty of people critiquing the study on the internet and its just not pretty.

I actually watched a Ted talk recently by someone who basically said he would be a week day vegetarian because he couldnt imagine ever eating his last burger. So he was vegetarian M-F then if he wanted meat on the weekends he would have it or not. He also implored the audience to try removing meat from their diet just one day a week.

[Dreamliner]

I would mention that I don't disagree with eating more fruits, veggies, and nuts over meats and grains.

In fact, it is my personal theory (with no scientific evidence to back it up other than my own looks at nutritional content)... out of veggies, fruits, and nuts... Veggies should be consumed the MOST. In general, veggies contain a lot of nutrients and deliver it with less sugar (and calories from sugar).

It's true, eating more fruits and veggies probably (probably) won't kill anybody. But I must say, based on the 72-hour food journals I get from my fat clients, fruits and veggies aren't a problem. They also tend to eat less red meat than I do. Additionally, some take various 'health supplements.'

And they're fat, feel lousy and often have various and sundry medical conditions.

[108]

It would be nice if they could show causation

I am generally a vegetarian due to me being raised a vegetarian, and anxiety has been an issue for me

Though it was also an issue for my father when he was younger and he wasn't a vegetarian

[orangeblueorangeblue]

Soy, was invented by monks to lower their sex drive as they weren't supposed to get any. It raises estrogen levels in both men and women. Cancer prolbems in women and sex drive problems in men, are the reasons I don't touch the stuff.

Almost everything in this paragraph is incorrect.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

But in short, soy does not raise estrogen in men.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

What I can't figure out is how humans survived before electricity and electrically driven refrigeration cycles were so common.

Maybe we didn't. Maybe all the salt and sugar used in preserving food back then lead to high blood pressure and we didn't know that was why we were dying so "young" (relative to today). ????

This is another myth. I believe there's a 4 year difference in average life expectancy beyond childhood. In 1900 the average life expectancy was 74 if you survived childhood, I think it's like 78 now.

[Dreamliner]

Even 'eating more fruits and vegetables' is probably overrated. The practically venerated DASH Diet yields DECIDEDLY modest improvements in blood pressure.

Bottom-line: eat more fruits and veggies ... if you find them tasty.

[bluegrassg8r]

I can state with complete accuracy that my own vegetables are better tasting than any I can buy from stores in my area. We do have a large Amish/Mennonite community who tend to grow heirlooms in their gardens ( which they sell) and they too are really outstanding to eat raw or cook with.
I buy local chickens, pork, and beef for the simple reason that they taste better, have better fat ratios for flavor and marbling, and make better stocks. Our eggs also make waaayyyyyy better cakes and pies- the yolks are larger and richer.

[Gatorrick22]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22676203#

According to this study, they just may be. Now we just need to find out if you have to be crazy to be a vegetarian or if being a vegetarian makes you crazy.

"Are vegetarians crazy?" In a word: Nuts!

[rpmGator]

o&b,

The wife has a health degree and won't eat soy and won't let me eat it either. Here is a link to soy info and a link to the monk story. Soy lowers testosterone in men.

http://www.optimumchoices.com/Soy.htm

[Gatormb]

Lol Leaf. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?:huh:

Mama, that was answered a long time ago: The chicken according to my higher authority,

24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth every kind of animal--livestock, small animals, and wildlife." And so it was.

25 God made all sorts of wild animals, livestock, and small animals, each able to reproduce more of its own kind. And God saw that it was good.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

o&b,

The wife has a health degree and won't eat soy and won't let me eat it either. Here is a link to soy info and a link to the monk story. Soy lowers testosterone in men.

http://www.optimumchoices.com/Soy.htm

Your wife is wrong here. Soy definitively has no effect on testosterone levels in healthy men:

1 Hamilton-Reeves, J.M., et al. (2009). Clinical studies show no effects of soy protein or isoflavones on reproductive hormones in men: Results of a meta-analysis. Fertil Steril. In press.

2 Celec, P., et al. (2007). Increased one week soybean consumption affects spatial abilities but not sex hormone status in men. Int J Food Sci Nutr. 58:424-428.

3 Alsio, J., et al. (20009). Impact of nandrolone decanoate on gene expression in endocrine systems related to the adverse effects of anabolic androgenic steroids. Basic Clin Pharmacol Toxicol. In press.

[Chirogator]

Regardless of whether soy negatively effects hormonal status or not (which I think it absolutely can), its an inferior food choice in terms of fatty acid status and protein content compared to an abundant amount of foods that should make up your dietary choices.