Point guard situation this year vs. last year

[gogators73]

Note: Please do NOT turn this into negative comments about Walker. The kid played as hard as anyone on the team, made big time shots, and was a terrific PG for us.

Do you like the PG situation more this year? I LOVED what Erv brought to us with his ability to hit 3's from the half court line but I think us not jacking up 3's has helped a bit. Kenny still has shot up some questionable ones but besides that between Boynton and Wilbekin we've had really good PG play. They can't set up people like Erv did but I think with Wilbekin's added defense it makes up for it.

So do you like the PG more now or last year?

[tim]

This year, definitely. I've been really impressed with Boynton's play at point. I just think it fits into our "team" aspect better for some reason.

But like you said that's not anything against Erv.

[philnotfil]

Better defense from the point this year is huge.

[gatorbogey]

still collating.

will say that i thought PG play might be a liability this season. thus far, that's been disproven.

trading some defense for offense.

[Gatuar]

I'm not really confident in ball handling when we face a backcourt that can really pressure the dribble. Especially with Boynton....

but defensively way better

[phideltdj]

The defense is the major difference...as Erv was just too small and whoever he matched up with could easily get a look or post him up. It would at times put us in scramble mode trying to help out...and really hurt us against teams like Kentucky that had great length. Now you are adding an elite defender and our defense has really turned it up and is playing great. Scottie can score as well so it doesn't seem to hurt as much on the offensive end and our defense has led to more easy baskets than we were getting last year.

[GatoRella]

Replacing E-Walk who was a defensive liability (through no fault of his own) with Scottie "Tenacious D" Wilbekin is the main difference.

[rserina]

It is a definite tradeoff. What Walker brought to the table was his ability to shoot off the high ball screen, which is the basis of our entire offense. He could penetrate and pass, but Wilbekin can do those fine, as well. What neither Wilbekin nor Boynton can do is shoot off the ball screen and that is partly why our offense has been less efficient shooting the ball than in many past years. With Walker, our shooting, floor spacing, and in general our scoring ability were better.

That being said, what Wilbekin and Boynton bring to the table in terms of defense, size, and athleticism negate that loss. Those two guys give us nice size at the front of the zone, an ability to match up with bigger guards, to score in the lane, to make post entry passes, to rebound then ball (Boynton has really improved on tha front, no matter how much Donovan makes fun of him for it), and even to finish in transition. Our press is better, our half court defense is better (both man and zone), and I think out transition and paint offense are better, the latter because those guys can penetrate and score or simply get the ball to to the post.

If our frontcourt weren't playing so well on both ends, I think the benefits of Wilbekin/Boynton at the one would be mitigated a bit, but as it stands the combination of makes our defense stellar and our offense more than sufficient.

[cmarcum]

The difference is obviously on the defensive side...try as he might erv was never able to stop guys from shooting over the top of him or throwing the ball over him on the press...you see how suffocating our defense is because there are no more bailouts...even well coached teams like wisconsin can barely get consistent good looks on offense

[GatorRade]

What neither Wilbekin nor Boynton can do is shoot off the ball screen and that is partly why our offense has been less efficient shooting the ball than in many past years.

Interesting insight. Are we sure that Boynton can't shoot off the ball screen? Seems like the kid can (and will) shoot whenever you give him three microns of space.

[Go2gtr]

With an extra elite defender on the court we can switch to a zone more frequently than with Erving and keep a team off balance switching from man to different zones. Hamilton, while offensively challenged, cited how much trouble the various defenses Billy threw at him caused. They were practically shut down completely. Buzz Williams was stunned by how effective we were against his normally powerful team.

The capper is that we have the most effective press I've seen maybe ever under Billy. This defense is leading to so many points that losing Erving's long-range threes will not be noticed. We have five legitimate 3-point shooters which includes one of the best defense stretchers in Murphy who now can work effectively in the blocks as well. Add the offensive contributions now of Yegeute and Prather (who seems like he wants to become a three point shooter himself) and it's a complete offensive team who can out-rebound almost every team we play.

And I haven't even mentioned Patric who seems born again hard.

[rserina]

Interesting insight. Are we sure that Boynton can't shoot off the ball screen? Seems like the kid can (and will) shoot whenever you give him three microns of space.
Good question. There is a difference between shooting off the dribble and shooting off the screen. Boynton can definitely shoot off the bounce, but he struggles more off the ball screen. What makes him good off the bounce is his strength. The kid can just square his shoulder and power the ball up with his legs no matter what his starting angle is. But for whatever reason he is less confident reading the defense and shooting off the screen. Part of that is because he spent the better part of the last three years playing off the ball where he can catch and shoot, or at least catch with the intent of setting up his shot.

At least that's how I see it. I am sure Tupac would disagree and, of course, he is right.

[HALLGATOR]

Through 7 games this year teams are scoring an average of 48.5 points against us. Last year through 7 games they were scoring an average of 65.7. Even when you figure in that we had losses to Ohio State and Syracuse who are better teams than any we have faced this year we are still faring much better than last season.

[ApexNC]

I agree with the consensus....it's a trade off of better defense for more limited offense. The offense this year has been fine, but does not run nearly as smoothly without Walker. IF we can maintain the defensive dominance, I think the tradeoff will be fine. In fact, it seems so far that the gain in defense has very much out weighed any loss in offensive efficiency. Hopefully as the year goes on the parts will mesh on offense. If so, this team will be a title threat.

[rserina]

who seems born again hard.
That just sounds weird...

[Ahab]

I was a bit worried about our scoring ability this year but so far, it's been fine. Murphy has really blossomed and Patric, Yuegette and Prather all look more confident. Not to mention Frazier who has given us another outside shooter in the rotation.

[gatordd]

like everyone said, Not to bash Erv but he was a defensive liability. Doesn't seem like we have missed a beat on offense.

Again as others have said pressure in the backcourt worries me but I think Scottie and KB can handle it. Scottie was dribbling too much in the first half against FSU. Settled down in the second.

Great team - real chance to win it all which is all you can ask for. Go gators

[xenythx]

Last year we needed Erv's offensive abilities and penetration to set other guys up with shots. This year we seem to have many more guys that can create their own shot. Even Will is showing major flashes of an offensive game he didn't have last year.

What remains to be seen is how well Scottie handles the press against a team with big and strong guards.

[gatorbogey]

really good discussion going on here....

[InstiGATOR1]

I am not sure there has been a drop off in offense at all. UF is down slightly in efficiency compared to the final numbers last year, but has faced some traditionally tougher defenses, Wisconsin and Marquette, than last year. We shall see over the course of the season.

[rserina]

I am honestly far less concerned with the press (how many teams actually do it that well?) than I am about our ability to gather ourselves and get a shot late in the clock. That's where a good shooting point guard is dynamite in Donovan's offense. On the whole, we haven't been very "Donovan-like" offensively at all this year. Shooting from the arc is average, not a high volume of assists, and a somewhat poor assist/turnover ration. Not sure what our efficiency stats are like, but I suspect much of our effectiveness is attributable to great paint scoring (56% on twos) and transition offense.

Of course, it also bears mentioning that we played three games without Wilbekin and Prather is still trying to find his spot on the team, while our starting lineup has been in flux. Should be interesting to see how we fare as things settle down a bit come January. Can Boynton get hot from the arc? Can Rosario turn it around there? Will Frazier continue improving or hit a freshman wall? Can Wilbekin expand his control of the offense?

[NorthCaptivaGator]

Two things have been proven, Walker limited our ability to switch defenses on the fly and Walker wasn't the reason we couldn't get the ball to Young in the post, in fact he did it far better than we gave been able to thus far, will be interesting to see if KB's shooting touch returns without Walkers drive and kick outs freeing him up

[gatorrick1]

A couple posters hit it right on the head, A. because of Walker's size oppossing PG's could take him into the lane at the end of the shot clock and get a relatively good shot off and B. Walker's real value was the ability to break down a defense off the dribble when our offensive sets broke down or we were late in the shot clock and get other player's shots. They didn't always result in assists, but he had several Gretzky's as well. For those that don't know a Gretzky is a pass that leads to assists. Basketball people are realizing more and more the value of player's that also get Gretzky's.

As we face teams that play more aggressive and better perimeter defense with better athlete's ( think Tennessee in Pearl days ) we will see how our PG's hold up. I personally think we will be just fine and am excited to see just how good we can be.

[stingbb]

Way too early to say as UF has played a good but not great schedule.

UF is playing very well but lets not forget the past two Gator teams, with Walker at the point advanced to the Elite Eight.

[GatorRade]

Good question. There is a difference between shooting off the dribble and shooting off the screen. Boynton can definitely shoot off the bounce, but he struggles more off the ball screen. What makes him good off the bounce is his strength. The kid can just square his shoulder and power the ball up with his legs no matter what his starting angle is. But for whatever reason he is less confident reading the defense and shooting off the screen. Part of that is because he spent the better part of the last three years playing off the ball where he can catch and shoot, or at least catch with the intent of setting up his shot.

At least that's how I see it. I am sure Tupac would disagree and, of course, he is right.

Thanks for the thoughts. I'll watch him more closely on screens and see if I can pick it up.

[Ahab]

Boynton has been great overall but I think playing PG is affecting his shooting a little. I'd like to see Wilbekin at PG earlier in the game so we can set up Boynton with some open looks to get him going.

[tampajack1]

Boynton has been great overall but I think playing PG is affecting his shooting a little. I'd like to see Wilbekin at PG earlier in the game so we can set up Boynton with some open looks to get him going.

KB is back to his old shooting habit. He gets to the top of his leap and at the point when his legs are no longer a factor in his shot he fires a line drive wrist shot. The strange thing is that he does the opposite with his free throws. He gets his legs into his free throws and throws up a very soft shot. He needs to incorporate the same concept into his jump shot. He ought to study the Curry brothers, Ray Allen and others. You don't need to jump 2 feet in the air to shoot over someone. You just need a quick release. My guess is that KB developed some bad habits when he was a young kid playing with older guys. It's hard to get rid of old habits.

As to point guard, we had less turnovers and more easy shots with EW at the point. However, the transition from a small defensive team with EW, KB and Beal to a big defensive team with Wilbekin or Rosario replacing EW and Yeguete replacing Beal has turned us into an extraordinary defensive team, especially when we play zone. I have not watched many of this year's college teams, but it is hard to imagine that Wilbekin and Yeguete are not 2 of the best defenders in college basketball.

[themistocles]

Very interesting discussion.

This team appears to be as good as, or even better than last year's, despite losing a key leader/scorer in Walker, and the #3 draft pick.

The defense has been outstanding.

But, perhaps this has occurred due to this year's experience. Not many college teams field 3 seniors and 4 juniors.

Wilbekin is certainly a defensive advantage, and I guess even Rosario, although not a defensive stalwart, due to his height advantage over Walker, is better in a zone.

I am disappointed that Ogbuze has shown little yet, but happy that Frazier has shown a lot.

Last year, there were 3 guys who could play point: Walker, Wilbekin & Boynton. This year, right now, there are only two: Boynton & Wilbekin.

Hopefully, by midseason, that will increase to 3 (adding Ogbuze). If not, then I prefer last year's depth, but I value defense over offense any day, so I prefer this year's team with this year's PG rotation.

[keypox]

meh

down but overall team is looking good lots of depth

[akaGatorhoops]

It is a definite tradeoff. What Walker brought to the table was his ability to shoot off the high ball screen, which is the basis of our entire offense. He could penetrate and pass, but Wilbekin can do those fine, as well. What neither Wilbekin nor Boynton can do is shoot off the ball screen and that is partly why our offense has been less efficient shooting the ball than in many past years. With Walker, our shooting, floor spacing, and in general our scoring ability were better.

That being said, what Wilbekin and Boynton bring to the table in terms of defense, size, and athleticism negate that loss. Those two guys give us nice size at the front of the zone, an ability to match up with bigger guards, to score in the lane, to make post entry passes, to rebound then ball (Boynton has really improved on tha front, no matter how much Donovan makes fun of him for it), and even to finish in transition. Our press is better, our half court defense is better (both man and zone), and I think out transition and paint offense are better, the latter because those guys can penetrate and score or simply get the ball to to the post.

If our frontcourt weren't playing so well on both ends, I think the benefits of Wilbekin/Boynton at the one would be mitigated a bit, but as it stands the combination of makes our defense stellar and our offense more than sufficient.

This is a fantastic post.

[sleeze]

This year, no doubt.

[chompalot]

The team seems much more balanced on offense. Also, there is more focus on the defensive end because they're longer and stronger.

[madgator]

does anyone have any stats regarding our transition points. particularly off-turnovers?


there's a few other stats I want to look into before I make judgement. as well as watch a few more games. I am very curious to know our possessions average per game as well as our opponents average.

I don't really remember Walker being a standout shooter off the screen any more or less than any other shot he would take. What I do remember is that early in his career he would force a 3 when the defender overplayed him. To his credit, by his senior year he learned when the defender overplayed him, he would cut into the lane and often kick out to an open man on the perimeter. Boynton lived off this last year. I always thought that Walker was at his best on the shot that came when he was stationary, set up, and wide open receiving a kick out. He would hit that shot even if he was 25 feet out.

as for this years team, I'm actually more concerned about matching up with a team with a talented and deep front court. Our backcourt will be fine but we lack depth in the front and if Murphy and Young get in foul trouble together. We could be in trouble against certain teams.

[egator7]

The defensive improvement is evident as most are saying. I also like the offensive improvement because we are greatly limiting the number of out of control drives that resulted in turnovers. It seems like with Frazier, Boynton, Wilbekin and Murphy, we still have a plethora of 3 point shooters. Even Will getting into the mix there.

[rserina]

does anyone have any stats regarding our transition points. particularly off-turnovers?... I am very curious to know our possessions average per game as well as our opponents average.
I am sure they are available at Gatorzone, but it is pretty hard to get a handle on how representative they are at this stage versus last season given the low sample size thus far (doing best Themistocles geek-statistician impersonation).

as for this years team, I'm actually more concerned about matching up with a team with a talented and deep front court. Our backcourt will be fine but we lack depth in the front and if Murphy and Young get in foul trouble together. We could be in trouble against certain teams.
What interests me in this connection is how Donovan will attempt to matchup with such opponents. Defensively, the effectiveness of our zone can counteract the strength of an opposing frontcourt. Offensively, I think he really found something he likes with the small lineups putting either Murphy at the five to spread the entire floor or four guards out there around Young. The way we run our offense just makes that maddening to defend, even for a great defensive team like UK in last year's league tourney. If we find ourselves against a good, big frontline, I would not be surprised to see Donovan go small and put the ball in their court to adapt.

What worries the most is that this team won't be able to overcome an opponent that can shoot threes while being defended. That's why Pearl's Lofton-Smith teams really hurt is in our two national title runs. They could hit NBA threes over a completely vertical defender. It was unbelievable. UCF hit us on a few of those. If we run into teams who can do that, we will be hard pressed to match their offensive efficiency. Too many turnovers and missed threes, not enough assists on the ball screens to compensate. Hopefully we can improve in those areas.

[madgator]

Our offensive efficiency rating is actually up over last years number. 117 vs. 115.4 now it's a very minimal amount but it does put a damper on the idea that we have in any way traded off offense for defensive improvement.

this team has improved in both statistically thus far.

it's still early in the season, but I know that I love what I am seeing

[NorthCaptivaGator]

What will be interesting to see is who will be THAT GUY, like Walker so often was, the one who is able to make the deep three to squash an opponent who gets out on a run, or the guy who carries the team through a sluggish first half like Walker did against K-State a couple of years back, so far the THAT GUY roll seems to have fallen to Rosario but I think Murphy could be the one, but, if I had to put money on it I would bet that Frazier becomes THAT GUY

[madgator]

I will agree that Walker got us through that K-State game. However, more often than not the need for him to be "that guy" and make a big play was the result of a game being closer than it should've been. Two quick examples that come to me immediately were the UGA overtime and the UCLA game from two years ago.

then of course there was the Butler game as well and the Louisville game. Smart point guard play and lockdown defense on the perimeter (think of the players/units on those teams that killed us down the stretch; the backcourts Shelvin Mack and Siva/Smith) sunk us when it mattered most.

so far, we have not been in the kind of situation where we need that guy. could this be as a result of a more controlled, defensive game dictated by a disciplined backcourt that shuts down the oppositions perimeter offense?

at this point, I am not jumping to conclusions as we have need to have a larger sample size against a wider variety of opponents. The only thing that I can say is that much of what I anticipated seems to be developing.

[rserina]

Our offensive efficiency rating is actually up over last years number. 117 vs. 115.4 now it's a very minimal amount but it does put a damper on the idea that we have in any way traded off offense for defensive improvement.

this team has improved in both statistically thus far.
Was that 115 on the basis of seven early games last year or the whole season? I think that might skew the comparison a little.

[gatorbogey]

right now, kenpom has us #3 in offense & #3 in defense! that, folks, is TREMENDOUS. haven't seen that sort of rating for UF since the nat'l title teams.



Rank Team Conf W-L Pyth AdjO AdjD AdjT Luck Pyth OppO OppD Pyth

2 Florida SEC 7-0 .9686 117.4 3 84.0 3 64.4 275 +.010 162 .6010 91 100.7 138 96.7 58 .6010 101

www.kenpom.com

in season's past, we've had some reasonable kenpom rankings - but nothing like this! - at this stage of the season. but we'd slide a bit during the season. of course, the last 2 years, we've actually done better in the ncaa's than our kenpom ratings would indicate. so i'm interested in seeing how our #'s change/vary during the season and then see how we do in the post-season. seems to me, that billy has us playing better in the ncaa's than what we've shown during the regular season. i'm smiling about the possibilities if that continues this season :)

[HALLGATOR]

What will be interesting to see is who will be THAT GUY, like Walker so often was, the one who is able to make the deep three to squash an opponent who gets out on a run, or the guy who carries the team through a sluggish first half like Walker did against K-State a couple of years back, so far the THAT GUY roll seems to have fallen to Rosario but I think Murphy could be the one, but, if I had to put money on it I would bet that Frazier becomes THAT GUY

I don't want to jump the gun but before I finished reading your post the name that came to mind was Frazier II. I'm trying to keep in mind he is a freshman but...............

[tampajack1]

The defensive improvement is evident as most are saying. I also like the offensive improvement because we are greatly limiting the number of out of control drives that resulted in turnovers. It seems like with Frazier, Boynton, Wilbekin and Murphy, we still have a plethora of 3 point shooters. Even Will getting into the mix there.

Walker averaged about 2 turnovers per game.

[madgator]

Was that 115 on the basis of seven early games last year or the whole season? I think that might skew the comparison a little.

I had mentioned that the small sample size and the need for variety in opposition is a factor at this point. However, in fairness to this years team, we can only work with what we have.

of course, the results have been impressive and at least on my part, predictable. I had little doubt that this years team was easily and at minimum sweet 16 quality going back to the end of last season.

I was more concerned about how we were going to replace the scoring/rebounding we got out of Beal last year than I was about the quality of our point guard play.

[Ahab]

What will be interesting to see is who will be THAT GUY, like Walker so often was, the one who is able to make the deep three to squash an opponent who gets out on a run, or the guy who carries the team through a sluggish first half like Walker did against K-State a couple of years back, so far the THAT GUY roll seems to have fallen to Rosario but I think Murphy could be the one, but, if I had to put money on it I would bet that Frazier becomes THAT GUY

I think it'll be Boynton that steps up in the big moments.

[madgator]

I think it'll be Boynton that steps up in the big moments.

how about we just beat everybody by 20+ points every game:happy:

[philnotfil]

how about we just beat everybody by 20+ points every game:happy:

That works for me :)

[chompalot]

nm wrong thread

[keefer]

No question that this team has multiple guys that take a great deal of pride in playing tenacious D. With Billy staying on Young and Murphy as well, this team has unlimited ability to disrupt and/or shut down opposing offenses. Billy is giving as many looks defensively as he ever has due to the fact that this team has great athleticism and versatility.

When you can limit the good looks or easy baskets, then the possibility of opposing teams going on long runs is greatly diminished. Even if our offense is struggling a little teams are going to have difficulty pulling away. Conversely, we will end up getting easy baskets as we have done a great job of so far, making it much easier for us to go on those long runs when we are shooting well.

[NorthCaptivaGator]

I had mentioned that the small sample size and the need for variety in opposition is a factor at this point. However, in fairness to this years team, we can only work with what we have.

of course, the results have been impressive and at least on my part, predictable. I had little doubt that this years team was easily and at minimum sweet 16 quality going back to the end of last season.

I was more concerned about how we were going to replace the scoring/rebounding we got out of Beal last year than I was about the quality of our point guard play.

Predictable, just like your prediction of Larson being a poor man's Johkim Noah, or maybe your prediction of the election results in Ohio, ooohhh, sorry, low blow

[madgator]

Predictable, just like your prediction of Larson being a poor man's Johkim Noah, or maybe your prediction of the election results in Ohio, ooohhh, sorry, low blow


the Larson situation will be left unknown.....interesting though how badly Donovan tried to keep him on the team and has stated that there is an open door back if he wants it. so maybe one day we will find out. til then....


look, the nightmare days of having to watch Walker hamstring our team's success are over. We are now undefeated, currently rated one of the top offensive AND defensive teams in the nation, we are winning games by an average of 25 ppg, and we are considered the top team in the SEC and a final four favorite.

the football team is playing in the Sugar Bowl and will most likely give us a top 3 finish. 2013 promises to provide a legit run to win titles in both football, basketball and if things develop right baseball as well.

So life is good on many levels and the promise is all there for even bigger and greater.

I actually had a conversation with someone today where someone put out the thought that if we take down Arizona, with the current state of the SEC, and if we stay injury free. We COULD legitimately run the regular season. Now, I don't necessarily agree. But it's a nice thought nonetheless.

[NorthCaptivaGator]

the Larson situation will be left unknown.....interesting though how badly Donovan tried to keep him on the team and has stated that there is an open door back if he wants it. so maybe one day we will find out. til then....

look, the nightmare days of having to watch Walker hamstring our team's success are over. We are now undefeated, currently rated one of the top offensive AND defensive teams in the nation, we are winning games by an average of 25 ppg, and we are considered the top team in the SEC and a final four favorite.

the football team is playing in the Sugar Bowl and will most likely give us a top 3 finish. 2013 promises to provide a legit run to win titles in both football, basketball and if things develop right baseball as well.

So life is good on many levels and the promise is all there for even bigger and greater.

I actually had a conversation with someone today where someone put out the thought that if we take down Arizona, with the current state of the SEC, and if we stay injury free. We COULD legitimately run the regular season. Now, I don't necessarily agree. But it's a nice thought nonetheless.

See above for the first person to ever describe two elite 8 runs as "nightmare days"

[akaGatorhoops]

I had little doubt that this years team was easily and at minimum sweet 16 quality going back to the end of last season.


I hate engaging you in this debate, but the above quote is rather telling and points to what I think is your consistently unfair anaylsis and standard for Erving Walker.
In each of the past 2 seasons, the Gators made the Elite 8 with Erv as pg. Now, with a team you suggest is better, and with the player who apparently "hamstrung" its success gone --- your benchmark is the Sweet 16.

Explain. . .

[NorthCaptivaGator]

I hate engaging you in this debate, but the above quote is rather telling and points to what I think is your consistently unfair anaylsis and standard for Erving Walker.
In each of the past 2 seasons, the Gators made the Elite 8 with Erv as pg. Now, with a team you suggest is better, and with the player who apparently "hamstrung" its success gone --- your benchmark is the Sweet 16.

Explain. . .

I can explain,

the Larson prediction and his unfortunate arrogance regarding Ohio have left him a little gun shy about getting too aggressive with his predictions, he is now content to predict that we will do slightly worse than we did last year despite the fact that we are now without the guy that he is on record as saying we would be better off without .... Yeah I guess you had better ask him

[madgator]

I hate engaging you in this debate, but the above quote is rather telling and points to what I think is your consistently unfair anaylsis and standard for Erving Walker.
In each of the past 2 seasons, the Gators made the Elite 8 with Erv as pg. Now, with a team you suggest is better, and with the player who apparently "hamstrung" its success gone --- your benchmark is the Sweet 16.

Explain. . .

it's not about benchmarks. It's about expectations. Expectations can certainly adjust as the season goes on; young players develop, injuries, opposing teams getting better/worse. Kind of like the "stock trend" comparisons.

so you can have a tremendous season that is beyond initial expectations but is still below where you should've ended up (even though it was greater than where you were expected to pan out at the outset)

In both of the last two years those situations definitely applied. During the 2010-2011 season we went in thinking about NCAA tourney maybe a sweet 16 best case scenario. then as the season started, by early January many were thinking we could be NIT bound. Then after a great January/February we were back thinking Sweet 16. We made it to the Elite 8 and with the way things shook out, SHOULD have made the final 4 and possibly beyond.

Last year was similar but different in that the swings weren't as great. Going in, the Sweet 16 seemed like a certainty. We got better as the year went on but standards/expectations were about the same. We went into the tourney with a tough draw and some thought that we couldn't even make the sweet 16 because of it. But we made the elite 8 playing some of our best basketball of the year relying heavily on our most talented player. ultimately we blew a game we definitely seemed to have control of for 35 of the 40 minutes.

my opinion explaining a reason why we lost out on maximum success in those games has already been discussed. my opinion as to why the success we did have came in spite of over-utilization has already been discussed at length.

so my analysis really isn't unfair because the expectations are fluid throughout the season. especially when it comes tournament time so much is in play. besides the fact that we have had extremely talented teams overall the past 2 years with several players who are excelling at the next level. whether that be in the NBA or Europe.

[madgator]

I can explain,

the Larson prediction and his unfortunate arrogance regarding Ohio have left him a little gun shy about getting too aggressive with his predictions, he is now content to predict that we will do slightly worse than we did last year despite the fact that we are now without the guy that he is on record as saying we would be better off without .... Yeah I guess you had better ask him


the larson prediction will probably never be conclusively proven/disproven. Although it would be great to see the kid get his life in order, get back on the team and reach the potential that had schools like Kansas recruiting him.

and I have not been shy in my expectations/predictions for this year. Right now, we are looking like a legit final four team. however, there are still 25ish games left to play and a lot could happen. So pretty much every year, the Sweet 16 is the standard that all top schools should go in with. Tough to say that the Final Four is a shoe in. Only once have us Gators been afforded that luxury.

one team that I like A LOT and I think is going to get really really really good as the season develops (I mean they are good now but they can be the best in the country good) is Kansas. I'll call them a final four team. with Indiana, Duke and UF:happy:

[akaGatorhoops]

With respect... your expectations were unfair in the sense that I do not recall you lauding the pg play when those expectations were being exceeded. I do, of course, recall you blaming the pg play when your fluid and rising expectations were not met.

[madgator]

With respect... your expectations were unfair in the sense that I do not recall you lauding the pg play when those expectations were being exceeded. I do, of course, recall you blaming the pg play when your fluid and rising expectations were not met.

No, I gave credit for making the attempt at adjustments. For being coachable. For working against life long engrained instincts. Still got pissed though when they reared their ugly head every now and again.

and despite success, I always knew that those inherent short-comings, occasional outbursts of instinct, and over-utilization would ultimately doom maximum team success.

[akaGatorhoops]

p.s.--- You would be hard pressed to find a gator roster from the past 12 years that was not talented. . . including the NIT teams that boasted speights, parsons, calathes.

[madgator]

p.s.--- You would be hard pressed to find a gator roster from the past 12 years that was not talented. . . including the NIT teams that boasted speights, parsons, calathes.

I agree. Where/how/why do you think that those teams fell below their capabilities?

[akaGatorhoops]

and despite success, I always knew that those inherent short-comings, occasional outbursts of instinct, and over-utilization would ultimately doom maximum team success.

I can't imagine that you do not see how transparent your own arguement is.
If put into dilogue, it would sound something like this:

"Yeah, Erv is doing okay now... but wait. Ok, we are winning, but waaaait. Sure, I know he broke the assist record, but you'll see. Just wait.
Yeah.... we are in the tourney again, but wait.
Alright, Sweet 16, but hold on. Yup... Elite 8, but give it some time.
Aha!!! I told you! We lost!!! I KNEW it!".

I am not trying to bust your stones on this again, but the notion that you were some kind of sooth-sayer is a bit ridiculous. By your own admssion, the Walker-led teams exceeded your overall expectations. Yet, when they did come up short, you used it as a 'gotcha moment' to prove a point that didn't exist.

The truth is, a significant portion of your analysis regarding Erv has always been valid. But there is a sizeable portion that ignores personal and team achievement, defers successes, highlights losses and assigns personal blame. It that with which I disagree.

[madgator]

I can't imagine that you do not see how transparent your own arguement is.
If put into dilogue, it would sound something like this:

"Yeah, Erv is doing okay now... but wait. Ok, we are winning, but waaaait. Sure, I know he broke the assist record, but you'll see. Just wait.
Yeah.... we are in the tourney again, but wait.
Alright, Sweet 16, but hold on. Yup... Elite 8, but give it some time.
Aha!!! I told you! We lost!!! I KNEW it!".

I am not trying to bust your stones on this again, but the notion that you were some kind of sooth-sayer is a bit ridiculous. By your own admssion, the Walker-led teams exceeded your overall expectations. Yet, when they did come up short, you used it as a 'gotcha moment' to prove a point that didn't exist.

The truth is, a significant portion of your analysis regarding Erv has always been valid. But there is a sizeable portion that ignores personal and team achievement, defers successes, highlights losses and assigns personal blame. It that with which I disagree.


Fair enough. But it's a simple case of an obvious fatal flaw, an Achilles heel if you will, that you just know is going to lead to your downfall at some point.

if it wasn't for the fact that our Elite 8 losses in both games were primarily guard related. Quick shots with the lead inside 5 minutes, bad passes, bad defense etc. your point against me would carry more weight.

but the fact remains that both the Butler and the Louisville losses were in large part directly the result of our guards not doing what they needed to do to protect a late game lead. Both offensively and defensively.

The fatal flaw was exploited and my points shouldn't be condemned or minimized just because I was giving credit where I felt credit was due.

[akaGatorhoops]

Fair enough. But it's a simple case of an obvious fatal flaw, an Achilles heel if you will, that you just know is going to lead to your downfall at some point.

if it wasn't for the fact that our Elite 8 losses in both games were primarily guard related. Quick shots with the lead inside 5 minutes, bad passes, bad defense etc. your point against me would carry more weight.

but the fact remains that both the Butler and the Louisville losses were in large part directly the result of our guards not doing what they needed to do to protect a late game lead. Both offensively and defensively.

The fatal flaw was exploited and my points shouldn't be condemned or minimized just because I was giving credit where I felt credit was due.

I noticed you used the plural form. . . guards. Yet nearly all of your crituque seems to be reserved for one.

Anyway, we have had this debate a thousand times. We agree on more than you think.

I believe you may have read this, but if not. . . I wrote much of the counter-points with you in mind!

http://www.gatorcountry.com/basketball/article/forum_fracas_erving_walker/14816

[rserina]

I wish the mods would just hack this dude's posts. They clutter the board with his pointless invective against an ex-Gator and go over the same stuff repeatedly even where his argument is pretty irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I think everybody here knows how he feels and why, so I don't see the need in derailing a thread in which the opening poster went out of his way to avoid this stupid Walker spat. When thread starters have to include a proviso to keep a poster from ruining the discussion, isn't that a bad sign? Can we sign a board petition or something for moderators to eliminate any post where he refers to Walker or point guard play in general? Then we can see if he has anything else to contribute other than incendiary provocation.

[gatorbogey]

some/all of these extended debates are tiresome, for sure. you can see how the hatfields and mccoys can go on and on and on. people get their egos attached to their opinions and it can be problematic. not sure i'd advocate any sort of censorship, though.

[tupacbiff]

I wish the mods would just hack this dude's posts. They clutter the board with his pointless invective against an ex-Gator and go over the same stuff repeatedly even where his argument is pretty irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I think everybody here knows how he feels and why, so I don't see the need in derailing a thread in which the opening poster went out of his way to avoid this stupid Walker spat. When thread starters have to include a proviso to keep a poster from ruining the discussion, isn't that a bad sign? Can we sign a board petition or something for moderators to eliminate any post where he refers to Walker or point guard play in general? Then we can see if he has anything else to contribute other than incendiary provocation.

Not saying I agree with him but if you don't like it put him on ignore and move on. I'm sure you wouldn't want someone eliminating all your posts on a single subject cause it's in the minority or others find it annoying that u chime in.

[madgator]

I wish the mods would just hack this dude's posts. They clutter the board with his pointless invective against an ex-Gator and go over the same stuff repeatedly even where his argument is pretty irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I think everybody here knows how he feels and why, so I don't see the need in derailing a thread in which the opening poster went out of his way to avoid this stupid Walker spat. When thread starters have to include a proviso to keep a poster from ruining the discussion, isn't that a bad sign? Can we sign a board petition or something for moderators to eliminate any post where he refers to Walker or point guard play in general? Then we can see if he has anything else to contribute other than incendiary provocation.


The point of the thread was to compare last years guard play to this years guard play. How is this accomplished without criticism? Obviously, the OP is insinuating that there is improvement over last year. So where does that improvement come from? What are the distinctions. Inherent to the exercise of comparison is criticism.

Plus, I think that quite a few will agree that we are able to come to better conclusions and understandings by hashing through disagreements and the good and bad of all aspects. Debate and the open dissemination of all ideas IS A GOOD THING.

otherwise, this board would be simplistic and dull. like a UK board:happy:

also, I'm sort of interested to read you say that I would have nothing else to contribute other than "incendiary provocation."

we've had some decent back and forth on quite a few diverse basketball topics over the years that had nothing to do with Gator point guard play.

[madgator]

I noticed you used the plural form. . . guards. Yet nearly all of your crituque seems to be reserved for one.

Anyway, we have had this debate a thousand times. We agree on more than you think.

I believe you may have read this, but if not. . . I wrote much of the counter-points with you in mind!

http://www.gatorcountry.com/basketball/article/forum_fracas_erving_walker/14816



Yes guards.....Boynton is guilty at times as well. Just don't find him to be "that preferred phrase" overall.

So it doesn't bother me as much.

[ncg8or]

Without Erv the Gators would not have made the Great 8 the last 2 seasons, no doubt he was the heart of those 2 teams.

[madgator]

Without Erv the Gators would not have made the Great 8 the last 2 seasons, no doubt he was the heart of those 2 teams.



:drool:


I'll leave it alone:exercise:

[MJGator8104]

Personally, I believe that if WY had been available, we would have moved to the Final Four and possibly even to the NC game regardless of our backcourt situation...

[madgator]

Personally, I believe that if WY had been available, we would have moved to the Final Four and possibly even to the NC game regardless of our backcourt situation...


Fair enough possibility. Don't know if I agree....but it's a fair assumption

[BKLYNgator]

its pretty clear that collectively our guard situation is better. KB, SW and Rosario have improved (especially the last 2) and Frazier has been a pleasant surprise. Having that depth and versatility i think raises everyone's performance. Now Prather and WY are a force on both ends . . .not guards but also helps the backcourt.

defensively i would like to see what happens when we face an elite PG. obviously SW is better defender than EW, but not sure how much either him or KB have been truly tested this year.
Is the team better this year??? it definately appears that way, but championships are not won in November and December. We'll see when crunch time comes around and how far we advance.

[akaGatorhoops]

Personally, I believe that if WY had been available, we would have moved to the Final Four and possibly even to the NC game regardless of our backcourt situation...

I agree with this.
I said at the time that it was a very understated loss. Even though he has improved, Will was still a very important part of the team a year ago. We missed him dearly in the tourney, imo.

[maxgator]

Oh... Hey... A new topic!!! Glad this hasn't been raised before....

[NorthCaptivaGator]

its pretty clear that collectively our guard situation is better. KB, SW and Rosario have improved (especially the last 2) and Frazier has been a pleasant surprise. Having that depth and versatility i think raises everyone's performance. Now Prather and WY are a force on both ends . . .not guards but also helps the backcourt.

defensively i would like to see what happens when we face an elite PG. obviously SW is better defender than EW, but not sure how much either him or KB have been truly tested this year.
Is the team better this year??? it definately appears that way, but championships are not won in November and December. We'll see when crunch time comes around and how far we advance.

I find it pretty amazing how well Rosario, Scottie and Frazier have made up not only for the loss of Walker but also of the #3 pick in the draft, Frazier is actually playing better than Beal did for the pre SEC season, though it must be said that we were asking much more of Beal at the time and he struggled with turnovers and defense trying to play the 3 at the college level, at least initially. I think the only thing I see us missing is the chemistry that existed between Walker and Kenny, having played three years together, they each always knew where the other would be and it got Kenny a lot of open looks, he has struggled the most with Erv's absence, it seems, but I am sure that he Scottie and Rosario will get a better feel for each other as the season rolls on and he has already taken advantage of the improved defense, being the guy on the receiving end of some fast break opportunities,