Starter's in way too long

[dejavuegator]

A Donovan trademark; and the only one I don't like!

W/this team so short already; why risk a stupid injury in the last 3 minutes?

[hgators]

Is there one freaking that Gator fans don't bitch about?!

[MadduxFanII]

I'm not saying it's an illegitimate criticism, but it is absolutely hilarious that the first thread started after an 18-point win over one of the nation's most consistently excellent programs is this one.

[Angaza]

Is there one freaking that Gator fans don't bitch about?!Temperature too cold in the O'Dome:whistle:

[lean_gator]

Is there one freaking that Gator fans don't bitch about?!

Man. I don't know what to say. Amazing.

[Allanon]

Temperature too cold in the O'Dome:whistle:

8 hours is too far to drive for a game and be at work tomorrow.

[born2beagator]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5KrGlnBVkE

[gatordavisl]

This team will be deeper with Prather and Wilbekin. I don't agree with the OP. We saw freshmen playing against a ranked opponent and the coaches have been MORE hesitant to do so in recent years.

[sec1]

Great Game Gators...

[GatorPlanet]

Particularly in early season games, BD likes to keep starters in late in blowouts, because he wants to get them in the habit of playing hard to the final buzzer.

[BLING]

Temperature too cold in the O'Dome:whistle:

That's from the lack of warm bodies inside the O'Dome. :shhh:

[g8rvet]

He substituted early and often. Had good rotation going all game.

[rserina]

What I love about this criticism is that no one ever provides a comparison with other coaching staffs to determine when they pull the starters with a similar lead. I suspect you would find Donovan is largely no different, but that wouldn't stop the complaint.

[toddsevans]

Ridiculous.

[oneatatime]

basically he played 6 guys the entire second half, and was surprised that he didn't clear the bench in the last minute.

I know it is early, but once Wilbekin and Prather returns, we are likely to see an 8 man rotation with Frazier the only frosh getting serious PT

[gatorev12]

I'll actually back the OP on it here...it's a small thing Donovan could have (and probably should have) done differently. It's safe to say we weren't going to give up a 24 point lead with 2 and a half minutes to go. If things started getting dicey, put in the starters again--but get the freshman in there to close things out and give your starters a few minutes rest. They'd put in good minutes when rotated in...makes sense to use Frazier and Graham and perhaps a few others to give guys like Murphy and Boynton a breather.

It's early in the season and we have a lot of tough games coming up in the next month...we should be looking to rest our starters as often as possible. A 20+ point blowout at home in a game we've controlled from the start would be a good place to do so.

[akaGatorhoops]

I agree that it is tough to complain on a night like tonight, but i will be honest....

There are many times that I am cringing when the starters are in late in a blowout. I understand that gamespeed and scenarios offer the best practice, but I dread injury. So, while I will not second-guess Billy --- I sometimes share the same concerns of the OP.

[gatormoe1]

This is probably the one and only thing about Billy I don't like but... I think BD waits too long to get our young guys in during garbage time.

Is this because he thinks the other team has a chance to comeback? Or do you think it has more to so with respect to other coaches and maybe putting in the reserves might look like he's rubbing it in? I've always wondered why he waits until 40-30 seconds left in the game to put them in just to run out the clock.

Thoughts?

[gatormoe1]

Well dang it... I didn't see the other similar thread, mods go ahead and merge this one or delete it... sorry.

[JohnC1908]

UF could blowout the 92/93 Bulls and there would be complaints.

[ArtVandelay]

Great night! Great win! Dominating from the opening tip!

It is a valid complaint. I worry more about injuries than I do about getting the other players quality time, although that would be good as well.

I think the Alabama State game was worse. We were up 50 and he had starters in with 4 minutes left...

[gatorbogey]

i'm wondering if there was a game in BD's past where he or the coach put the subs in 'too early' and the other team came back and won or put a major scare in the coach...? since he does wait alot longer than i would - just from the risk of injury and get some game film on the young guys. of course, i couldn't pass as a coach of hoops even at the pee wee level.

[madgator]

really, this team does not have a ton of depth especially with no Prather and Wilbekin. A 20 point lead can go to 8 in the blink of an eye and from there anything can happen.

it's not an ideal situation, but really I don't think coach had much of a choice.

[ih8danoles]

It was our 2nd game and a half and arguably our first REAL complete game.

It's mind boggling that there are this many people who seemingly know better than what is without question one of the top 3 coaches in the business.

[no_more_cowbell]

I have noticed this too. He obviously has a reason for it, but I don't have any ideas what it might be. I see no reason not to pull your starters with less than two minutes left in a 20 point game. Besides the chance of injury, you'd think it would be an opportunity to reward some of the bench players who play hard in practice every day. I'm a huge BD fan (I think he's the greatest coach in school history regardless of sport), but this tendency has puzzled me over the years.

[themistocles]

This team will be deeper with Prather and Wilbekin. I don't agree with the OP. We saw freshmen playing against a ranked opponent and the coaches have been MORE hesitant to do so in recent years.

Except, of course, for the Kentucky and Duke coaches.

[themistocles]

i'm wondering if there was a game in BD's past where he or the coach put the subs in 'too early' and the other team came back and won or put a major scare in the coach...? since he does wait alot longer than i would - just from the risk of injury and get some game film on the young guys. of course, i couldn't pass as a coach of hoops even at the pee wee level.

I think that was Spurrier you are thinking of with the choke at Doak.

And yes, the Gators under Bill D have historically been known to lose games down the stretch. At one point in time he had about the worst close game record of any coach in this history of basketball.

However, when the defense got better several years ago, that tendency dropped off quite a bit.

[gatormoe1]

I think that was Spurrier you are thinking of with the choke at Doak.

And yes, the Gators under Bill D have historically been known to lose games down the stretch. At one point in time he had about the worst close game record of any coach in this history of basketball.

However, when the defense got better several years ago, that tendency dropped off quite a bit.

I'm not saying you're wrong but do you have stats to prove this?

[breezergator]

I seem to recall the 04s being down 17 points to FSU with around 2 minutes remaining to come back and win. The three point shot with all your timeouts remaining can put pressure on a team that starts missing free throws.

[bullish]

I for one have always questioned Billy playing the starters in too long/short bench. But last night, I felt Billy substituted freely with all four freshmen playing. I felt he did it at the right times also. Everyone played except for walk-ons, and this was a tough early season test. So Maybe Billy has heard us and is learning what this thread is about. Remember, until Prather comes back, we don't have a lot of bigs to rotate and Prather is working in there to help out. So I am happy with this great win over a tough slow it down offense with a lot of kids taking charges and never giving up baskets without a hammer blow. Oh well, I hope their flight back to Madison, Ws welcomed them with sub zero temps. I know their offense was cold. LOL

Great Win Billy D. and the Florida Gator Basketball Team!

[gatorfansrule]

This isn't football guys. The chances of injury are soooo small. The most common injury is an ankle sprain, which only misses a couple weeks at most. Donovan did not sub out the entire starting lineup at the end of the game, but he did play 9 guys last night and that's with Prather and Wilbekin out. Every eligible, non-injured, non-suspended scholarship player put in minutes last night.

[gatormoe1]

I think a lot of people are confusing the two situations. It's not about playing the FR during the game, its about playing them at the end of the game. To be honest, since Billy did in fact play the FR freely, that is all the more reason to let them go play out the game with 2 minutes or so left. If the other team makes a quick run of 2-3 baskets.. call time out and get the starters back in there. I have rarely ever seen a 20 point lead fall in 2 minutes.. I'm not even sure if it has ever happened at all..

If Billy doesn't have confidence to play them right away, I get it.. but he played them throughout the whole game so why not give them a chance in garbage time.

[ArtVandelay]

It was our 2nd game and a half and arguably our first REAL complete game.

It's mind boggling that there are this many people who seemingly know better than what is without question one of the top 3 coaches in the business.

It's mind bottling that there are always people that get so sensitive anytime someone says anything that isn't 100% positive about Billy.

I don't think you will get many people on here that don't think Billy is a great coach. One of the top 5 in the country and wouldn't trade him for anything.

[ArtVandelay]

This isn't football guys. The chances of injury are soooo small. The most common injury is an ankle sprain, which only misses a couple weeks at most. Donovan did not sub out the entire starting lineup at the end of the game, but he did play 9 guys last night and that's with Prather and Wilbekin out. Every eligible, non-injured, non-suspended scholarship player put in minutes last night.

really? The chance of injury is always great for everyone. Look around the country. Ask Josh Gasser. Look last year and every other year. Murphy almost missed this game because of injury. Yuegete was injured last year and that really hurt our team.

Overall I would say the Gators have been pretty lucky regarding injuries. It's just something some fans would like to see done. No different than any other thread discussing who you think should play, etc.

Go Gators!

[g8rvet]

I think a lot of people are confusing the two situations. It's not about playing the FR during the game, its about playing them at the end of the game.
I'm not confusing the two at all. By substituting early in the game, especially wisely before breaks, it is possible to get the players a 3-5 minute break for only 1 minute or so of game time. When BD is able to do this, the players are not as fatigued at the end of the game. Turned ankles and a lot of other injuries are more common with fatigued players as well.

Plus, I do buy that this is not football. The play slows down when nursing a lead for the team that is winning, the defense is token and the ball is walked up the court. The time to get the frosh in is during full speed game, for the frosh's experience and to give quality rest and discussion with the starters, who are more likely to actually get injured during the game.

Could someone provide an example of a player injured while nursing a big lead late in a game? Not saying it has not happened, but there are a lot of posters on here with more watching time than me I am sure. I just can't think of any such injuries.

[gatormoe1]

I'm not confusing the two at all. By substituting early in the game, especially wisely before breaks, it is possible to get the players a 3-5 minute break for only 1 minute or so of game time. When BD is able to do this, the players are not as fatigued at the end of the game. Turned ankles and a lot of other injuries are more common with fatigued players as well.



I did not quote you, but from your comments, you're still missing my point. I'm not talking about subs because of injuries. I'm talking about playing the FR during garbage time to get them more minutes. What I said is people are confusing the two situations.. A lot of people here are talking about the FR playing during the game and how Billy is subbing them, but the main point of my thread and I think the OP of this thread is about playing the FR at the end of a blow out.

This isn't an observation from this game only.. This is years worth of seeing it, game after game. To be fair, I wouldnt be able to coach 5 year old YMCA basketball but I do think its beneficial for the FR to get as much playing time as possible and I don't think it helps anyone for Billy to send them out for the last 30 seconds just to hold the ball and not shoot.

[ufgator4ever]

There are plenty of pre- conference games left for the frosh. This was an important game for the vets to get.

[MJGator8104]

really? The chance of injury is always great for everyone. Look around the country. Ask Josh Gasser. Look last year and every other year. Murphy almost missed this game because of injury. Yuegete was injured last year and that really hurt our team.
Go Gators!

FYI, Murphy nearly missed this game because he had a migraine earlier in the week, not an injury.

Murphy had missed Monday’s practice with a migraine headache, but was able to get through Tuesday’s practice and Wednesday’s shootaround.

“When I get them, I just have to lay down and sleep pretty much and they go away,” Murphy said.

http://www.gatorsports.com/article/20121114/ARTICLES/121119754?tc=cr

[gatorfansrule]

really? The chance of injury is always great for everyone. Look around the country. Ask Josh Gasser. Look last year and every other year. Murphy almost missed this game because of injury. Yuegete was injured last year and that really hurt our team.

Overall I would say the Gators have been pretty lucky regarding injuries. It's just something some fans would like to see done. No different than any other thread discussing who you think should play, etc.

Go Gators!

Yes really. I can't remember the last time I saw a basketball player hurt in the last couple minutes of a blowout game, whether it was a starter or reserve. Fyi, Murphy was sick earlier in the week, not injured.

[321gator]

When we missed the tourney those 2 years, our schedule and results put us right outside the bubble. Just a theory, but perhaps Billy wanted to bolster our resume, and maintain 20 point win against a very good defensive team. Billy knows a huge 18 point win looks a lot better than a 5 or 6 point win at home. Stronger wins may lead to better seeds and brackets. The Gators dominated last night, and there is a chance our backups allow Wisconsin to cut down the lead to make it look like a pedestrian win. I also wanted the starters out with about 4 minutes to go, but with a national tv audience, maybe Billy wants to show everyone how real the Gators are.

[g8rvet]

I understand you Moe, I am just saying that minutes played during the ebb and flow of the game is >>>>>>>>>>>>> than 4 minutes in garbage time. Both for chances of injury and for meaningful time of seeing what they can do, especially playing with some of the starters. I guess I am not really sure what would be accomplished by getting them garbage minutes other than improving their stat lines at the end of the year. But they know when they got in the game and I am quite sure they would rather have 2 real minutes than 4 meaningless minutes. I could be wrong, just my take.

[patsyruth2008]

I am pretty sure there is an unwritten rule among Coaches that states the team getting beat makes the first move in clearing his bench. Kindof say "Okay you win, congratulations". At that point the team winning follows suite and clears his bench.

In the Wisconsin game, Coach Ryan kept his starters in the game and even started pressing the last couple of minutes, obviously telling Billy that he was still trying to win. I can't be sure, but this is why I thought Coach did not bring in the freshman late in the game.

[regurgigator]

I am pretty sure there is an unwritten rule among Coaches that states the team getting beat makes the first move in clearing his bench. Kindof say "Okay you win, congratulations". At that point the team winning follows suite and clears his bench.

In the Wisconsin game, Coach Ryan kept his starters in the game and even started pressing the last couple of minutes, obviously telling Billy that he was still trying to win. I can't be sure, but this is why I thought Coach did not bring in the freshman late in the game.

Good point.

And, I agree with 321gator that if the scrubs had come in and let the final margin get below 10, it might not look as impressive at the end of the season when the committee is looking at it and no one would remember that we led by double digits for much of the game.

[GatorSieg]

When we missed the tourney those 2 years, our schedule and results put us right outside the bubble. Just a theory, but perhaps Billy wanted to bolster our resume, and maintain 20 point win against a very good defensive team. Billy knows a huge 18 point win looks a lot better than a 5 or 6 point win at home. Stronger wins may lead to better seeds and brackets. The Gators dominated last night, and there is a chance our backups allow Wisconsin to cut down the lead to make it look like a pedestrian win. I also wanted the starters out with about 4 minutes to go, but with a national tv audience, maybe Billy wants to show everyone how real the Gators are.

Unfortunately this could be a moot point if Wisconsin goes on to have a terrible season and their final RPI is pretty pedestrian - then it becomes 'well they SHOULD have beaten them by 20' and the margin is overlooked.

Maybe my memory's off but I seem to remember one of the years right after the titles where we missed the NCAAs, we had some bigger OOC names on the slate and had a mixed record against them but they all turned out to have down years relative to the year before and playing them didn't do us any favors.

[NorthCaptivaGator]

It is silly to talk about keeping the starters in to long out of fear of injury. These kids are in the gym 24 seven. They're just as likely to turn an ankle's goofiing around after practice as they are playing in a game. Things like what happened with Will last year are freak injuries that can happen at any time. I agree you don't pull your starters until the opposing coach pulls theirs and they were still fouling with less than a minute left.

[madgator]

It is silly to talk about keeping the starters in to long out of fear of injury. These kids are in the gym 24 seven. They're just as likely to turn an ankle's goofiing around after practice as they are playing in a game. Things like what happened with Will last year are freak injuries that can happen at any time. I agree you don't pull your starters until the opposing coach pulls theirs and they were still fouling with less than a minute left.



I agree with you on this point.

and I don't think Wisconsin was pulling their starters because the coach wants to give his young players the minutes.....makes sense when you read his post-game comments.

[MJGator8104]

It is silly to talk about keeping the starters in to long out of fear of injury. These kids are in the gym 24 seven. They're just as likely to turn an ankle's goofiing around after practice as they are playing in a game. Things like what happened with Will last year are freak injuries that can happen at any time. I agree you don't pull your starters until the opposing coach pulls theirs and they were still fouling with less than a minute left.

Actually, lately, it seems they're more likely to get a concussion in practice..... :whistle:

[ofmgator]

Stupid is as stupid says dejaveau!

[Go2gtr]

So Billy thinks differently than the OP. Hmmmm, who is the better informed and more experienced at making head coaching decisions?

The OP is entitled to his opinion but it doesn't mean he is right. We get all sorts of opinions on this forum.

One thing we know for sure is, he (or she) is not well informed compared to the head coach.

[madgator]

So Billy thinks differently than the OP. Hmmmm, who is the better informed and more experienced at making head coaching decisions?

The OP is entitled to his opinion but it doesn't mean he is right. We get all sorts of opinions on this forum.

One thing we know for sure is, he (or she) is not well informed compared to the head coach.


Already weighed in on the topic which has nothing to do with this question......


the coach is never wrong?

[Go2gtr]

Already weighed in on the topic which has nothing to do with this question......


the coach is never wrong?
No, in this case the OP is wrong.

[gatormoe1]

No, in this case the OP is wrong.

Can you go into detail? What is so bad about getting FR more time with 2 minutes left instead of the last 30 seconds just to hold the ball?

This is like having the backup QB go out for the last play and kneel the ball.

[MJGator8104]

Can you go into detail? What is so bad about getting FR more time with 2 minutes left instead of the last 30 seconds just to hold the ball?

This is like having the backup QB go out for the last play and kneel the ball.

The freshmen were subbed in liberally all through the game.

[gatormoe1]

The freshmen were subbed in liberally all through the game.

Again, this has been posted and agreed with by every single person on this thread.

If he is so confident in them, why can't they finish the last 2 minutes of garbage time instead of the last 30 seconds just to hold the ball?

[xenythx]

Someone please put together a list of players in Billy's 17 years at Florida that suffered a significant injury in the last several minutes of a game because they were left in for too long.

[gatorfansrule]

Someone please put together a list of players in Billy's 17 years at Florida that suffered a significant injury in the last several minutes of a game because they were left in for too long.

1. .....
Ok done!

[MJGator8104]

1. .....
Ok done!

Name?

[Go2gtr]

Already weighed in on the topic which has nothing to do with this question......


the coach is never wrong?
The OP can't be "right" because he has no idea what Billy was thinking.

What if Billy wanted to get the attention of the younger guys because they haven't been putting their best into practice and he wanted to make the point that he can't trust them because their effort isn't there.

Don't bother arguing because this is a hypothetical. Point is he doesn't know what Billy was thinking.

[gatorfansrule]

Name?

Couldn't come up with one.

[MJGator8104]

Couldn't come up with one.


LOL!

[beanfield]

they need experience

[gatormoe1]

I wonder if Walker and Graham had a few bad practices? I'm watching the game and its almost over, Walker and Graham haven't gotten on the floor at all and we're up 24 points with 5 minutes left. I know nothing about basketball and being a coach, but isn't the best experience when you're on the court playing against other players that aren't on your team?

[Ahab]

My take is Billy is trying to integrate Frazier & Obugueze into the rotation so they need time with the older players to get more comfortable in their roles. Billy said he doesn't want to be putting 3 or 4 freshmen out there at once b/c everything just gets sloppy.