Lakers going Princeton

[rserina]

Is this really true?

Even before the Los Angeles Lakers delivered him point guard Steve Nash, Bryant had raised an idea with coach Mike Brown about the possibility of employing a distant cousin to the triangle – the Princeton offense...

Over dinner in Barcelona, Bryant and Gasol discussed the changing face of the Lakers' offense and a Hall of Fame point guard who can get them high-percentage shots, where the smarts and skills of Bryant and Nash, Gasol and Bynum make this an ideal partnership of system and talent. The Princeton demands post players with passing skills, and which 7-footer has ever been as deft moving the ball as Gasol?

"Steve is going to make it easier for Pau, because he's an incredible distributor, but the system is perfect for [Gasol]," Bryant said. "His ability to pass the ball, to make plays from the high post – to shoot – is the perfect system for him.

"I'm excited for Pau because this is right in his wheelhouse."
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--kobe-bryant-goes-back-to-school--lakers-switching-to-princeton-offense.html

If this is true, I rank it right up there with Shaq going to Phoenix or Tom Brady running the option. Let me get this straight: you trade for one of the top three passing point guards in the NBA and one of the best pick and roll handlers in basketball history, then take the ball out of his hands and out of the hands of the best shot creator in the league and put them in an offense that runs through your high post four, who is also a great pick and roll player in his own right? Oh, and what are going to do you with Bynum? How well do you think he is going to move off the ball?

In effect, they are going with an offense that neutralizes three of the four best offensive players on the team. Why not go back to the triangle? At least that would make good use of Bynum, Gasol, and Bryant, even if it would turn Nash into a spot up shooter. I know there are variations of the Princeton offense and you can adapt it to your talent somewhat, but this smacks of desperation.

[madgator]

I see what you're saying. Although I couldn't understand about how Nash would thrive in the triangle offense. You don't pay $10 million a year for the 3rd or 4th component within the offensive system. You could go out and get a competent shooter/defender to fill the role for 1/3-1/4 the price. With the triangle, you really don't need a "true point guard."

My take on this is (Kobe kind of alluded to this) they need to ride Gasol. Almost seems like he is admitting that he can't do what he used to do and have to make Pau the focal point of the offense.

can't say I disagree.

with the triangle you need the ultra-talented wing man which of course Kobe was and still is to a lesser extent. But with the minutes logged on his body I think he understands that he can't be relied upon night in-night out anymore.

the princeton offense isn't that much different fundamentally but demands less ball handling from the wing-player and more from the point guard and power forward. Also, in theory, it's going to give Kobe more low-post scoring opportunities rather than having to play wing or high-post like in the triangle.

I don't see it as desperation. I see it as Kobe admitting the need for his preservation. Watching Kobe last year, I thought it was obvious that he had lost a step.

I actually think it's a good idea considering their teams make-up.

[rserina]

I agree that the triangle wouldn't be a good use of Nash, but neither is Carrill's high post motion offense.

I also don't see great similarities between the triangle and the Princeton. With the triangle, everything runs through the low post with your strongside perimeter players having the freedom to shoot or create based upon how the post is defended and your weakside pair spacing or cutting.

With the Princeton motion, your low post is basically useless and your all three of your perimeter players spend more time off the ball. But I do see your point about creating post opportunities for Bryant. That would give him some easy buckets, though it would come at the expense of Bynum's productivity.

[GatorLurker]

Maybe Kobe is worried that Nash and Gasol will be the primary offensive focus playing pick and roll and he becomes a third option. Nash and Gasol is on the level of Stockton and Malone. Hence Kobe is trying to politic for a system where he is at least as important as the other two.

Kobe getting isolated on the perimeter as a third option is an offensive coach's dream, but I'm thinking it is Kobe's nightmare.

[madgator]

I agree that the triangle wouldn't be a good use of Nash, but neither is Carrill's high post motion offense.

I also don't see great similarities between the triangle and the Princeton. With the triangle, everything runs through the low post with your strongside perimeter players having the freedom to shoot or create based upon how the post is defended and your weakside pair spacing or cutting.

With the Princeton motion, your low post is basically useless and your all three of your perimeter players spend more time off the ball. But I do see your point about creating post opportunities for Bryant. That would give him some easy buckets, though it would come at the expense of Bynum's productivity.

Bynum may or may not be in the Lakers long term plans.


The triangle offense is founded upon much of the same principles of the Princeton offense. First off, they are both more geared towards read/react and not "set-play" with multiple reads available at every point on the floor. These offenses are more commonly referred to as continuity offenses as they technically never have to be "re-set" Both start with a basic set of 4 men outside 1 man inside without the ball starting at the point but rather at the key line extended. Where the offense is also very similar is when the ball goes in on an entry pass. The screen/cut/reads off the post player with the ball is the most important common element between both offenses as this is where you catch the defense having to make decisions.

Of course the triangle is a much more advanced offensive system but I don't think that you would have the triangle without having the princeton offense first. I'm not saying that they are identical, but the triangle is an evolution of the principles laid out in the princeton.

but again, what do I know about basketball. maybe moe can offer his dissertation on pros and cons of the princeton offense with the Lakers personnel. I'm sure he has a better understanding of it and thus can give a more well-reasoned explanation.

[madgator]

Maybe Kobe is worried that Nash and Gasol will be the primary offensive focus playing pick and roll and he becomes a third option. Nash and Gasol is on the level of Stockton and Malone. Hence Kobe is trying to politic for a system where he is at least as important as the other two.

Kobe getting isolated on the perimeter as a third option is an offensive coach's dream, but I'm thinking it is Kobe's nightmare.

maybe, but I doubt it. If that was the case, he would want the triangle as he is the primary player with Nash being the 3rd wheel perimeter guy.

I'm thinking he is trying to is incorporate Nash into an offense that is easier to learn (triangle can take years to fully master) while still maintaining the basic principles of what the team concept already is, how they are constructed, and where the strengths of their personnel lie.

At this stage in the game, I don't think that Kobe is worried about himself. Saw a thing the other day that he would only have to average 18.5 points a game over the next 2 years to pass Jordan for #3 on the all time scoring list. He has basically no chance to catch Karl and Wilt without averaging 25 points a year for the next 5 years (til he is 40). Basically, it ain't happening.

I think he would rather give himself a chance to match, or pass, the 6 rings that Jordan has

[GatorLurker]

I don't think that Kobe is worried about himself.

That made me spit coffee on my screen

[madgator]

That made me spit coffee on my screen


yeah thats true. In the broad sense, my comment was incorrect. Although I do think that he isn't as focused on being the focal point of the offense and individual statistics (the point of the post I was questioning) as much as he is about giving himself the best chance to win titles.

[gatordd]

this made me laugh... Kobe is going to continue to have the ball in his hands until he retires...

Can you imagine Michael saying this about Ron Harper and Tony Kukoc at the end of his career? No.

[madgator]

this made me laugh... Kobe is going to continue to have the ball in his hands until he retires...

Can you imagine Michael saying this about Ron Harper and Tony Kukoc at the end of his career? No.

Ron Harper and Tony Kukoc = Steve Nash and Pau Gasol?


One thing to consider with Kobe is that a divorce is just a matter of time. And the cost estimate for him is said to be between $60-$125 million.

My bet is that he would be more interested in prolonging his career and keeping the dollars coming in.

[Osiris_DPM]

Ron Harper and Tony Kukoc = Steve Nash and Pau Gasol?

Yes, word on the street is it's been them in disguise all along.

[gatordd]

Bad analogy you're right

[corpgator]

Kobe isn't going to quit until he is the NBA point leader. He'll get there, most likely, but Lebron and then Durant will pass him in a decade.

As far as the triangle goes, they didn't even run it last year since Phil was gone. Kobe wasn't forced anymore to not take bad shots, which he did begrudgingly under Jackson, so he started shooting a lot more bad ones. They almost switched back because Kobe realized he wasn't as good when he was able to do whatever he wanted.

We'll see what they do this year.

[madgator]

so Kobe is going to average 25 points a game until he is 40?

[corpgator]

I didn't say he'd make it, but I doubt he'll quit until he does or is forced to retire.

[madgator]

Being a Laker hater (even though I grew up idolizing Magic Johnson) I have to say that I do like watching this Laker offense. They are getting a TON of high percentage shots at the basket.

Pau Gasol might average 5-6 assists a game this year. He is the prototypical 4 man for this system.

[gatorplank]

Being a Laker hater (even though I grew up idolizing Magic Johnson) I have to say that I do like watching this Laker offense. They are getting a TON of high percentage shots at the basket.

Pau Gasol might average 5-6 assists a game this year. He is the prototypical 4 man for this system.

I played the Princeton offense in high school. The strength of the Princeton offense is getting high percentage shots. Its weakness has always been that it does not put players in good positions to get offensive rebounds.

[jeffphillips21]

Princeton offense in a half-court set MAY work for them, but they've got to push the ball up the court. Nash is just walking it (and getting picked too often). Why have Nash on your team if you're not going to push the ball AND keep the ball out of his hands? I've never seen him play so much off the ball.

They've got to find a balance - if Nash can get to the hoop and just lob to Howard, get Kobe and Gasol easier shots, then they could be very tough...but they have a long way to go. So far Nash is just looking OLD.

[madgator]

Princeton offense in a half-court set MAY work for them, but they've got to push the ball up the court. Nash is just walking it (and getting picked too often). Why have Nash on your team if you're not going to push the ball AND keep the ball out of his hands? I've never seen him play so much off the ball.

They've got to find a balance - if Nash can get to the hoop and just lob to Howard, get Kobe and Gasol easier shots, then they could be very tough...but they have a long way to go. So far Nash is just looking OLD.

Steve Nash is a guy that has to have the ball in hands to be effective.....and only in a pick and roll offense.

I can see utilizing him in those situations with both Pau Gasol and Dwight Howard. But this means that they are going to have to scrap the princeton and take the ball out of Kobe's hands on a lot of possessions.

[dalwood13]

Brown is not the right coach for this team. He is awful.

[madgator]

Kobe just told me to "shut up."

darn it!