Coming "Back"

[nggator]

Almost 8 months since back surgery; fusion L5 S1
Went to doc at 7 months, he was pleased, basically released me.
I asked him about lifting (he should know because he is a bodybuilder) and this is what he said:
No cleans, no deadlifts;
Could squat, low or body-weight, great form.
Basically everything else use common sense.
One thing that bothered me a little and I really didn't get a great explanation was that he said no jogging ever. Treadmill, cycling, walking ok.
So I've been working out since, with normal problems: soreness, stiff, lack of energy, longer time to recuperate, but at least I can do something physical again!
I've always been on a "program" of some type, but find it very difficult now. Thoughts or recommendations would be very appreciated.

[kuto22]

I have had the same surgery L-5, S-1 plus a C-6/C-7 fusion and all I can recommend to you is no running, squating, no cleans or deadlifts. If you play tennis, you don't anymoe. Golf is fine as long as you learn a swing that works for you. Actually my surgery was great for my game because it made me swing the rightway and I play 10 strokes better. You will have days where you feel the pain in the leg, back of knee or in the butt and those days you take it easy. The drug Gabentin (nerve block) has became a good friend of mine. I have just had 2 friends who had the exact surgery and one is a unne and the other is big into tennis and both just had second sugeries. Becareful and take care.

[kuto22]

Runner (damn keys)!

[Dreamliner]

Offhand I'd say that all these contraindications are a good reason to avoid spinal fusion surgery. Or maybe your doctor is full of crap and doesn't realize how resilient the human body is.

At various times in my life I've been told never to play tennis again (due to tennis elbow) and never to lift more than ten pounds overhead (due to mild scoliosis).

[Dreamliner]

Special note: Lamar Gant was probably pound-for-pound the best deadlifter in history. He had scoliosis so severe that when lifting in excess of 75% of 1RM he had a deviation of 70 degrees. Did you understand what I just typed ? His spine bent SIDEWAYS.

[nggator]

Special note: Lamar Gant was probably pound-for-pound the best deadlifter in history. He had scoliosis so severe that when lifting in excess of 75% of 1RM he had a deviation of 70 degrees. Did you understand what I just typed ? His spine bent SIDEWAYS.

I don't need you to talk down to me! If you will remember I posted on 6/22/11, check out your response, pretty encouraging, the type of thing which I would expect from someone who trains people.
I cannot change what has happened, I can only move forward. I am looking for the type of lifts, the type of programs that I know I can do and feel good about my progress.
All I was asking for was recommendations, suggestions toward getting remotely back to where I feel like an athlete.

[Dreamliner]

I don't need you to talk down to me! If you will remember I posted on 6/22/11, check out your response, pretty encouraging, the type of thing which I would expect from someone who trains people.
I cannot change what has happened, I can only move forward. I am looking for the type of lifts, the type of programs that I know I can do and feel good about my progress.
All I was asking for was recommendations, suggestions toward getting remotely back to where I feel like an athlete.

Lighten up. My recommendations and thoughts stand. Doctors often rush to operate. Not surprising as that's what they do. They also tend to be unnecessarily conservative in their exercise prescriptions.

[nggator]

Lighten up. My recommendations and thoughts stand. Doctors often rush to operate. Not surprising as that's what they do. They also tend to be unnecessarily conservative in their exercise prescriptions.

I was not challenging your recommendations and thoughts, actually I was hoping you would reply, because I respect your opinions, methods, and practices. Yes, I am aware of your response 6 months ago. Now that I am ready to take it to another level, I was searching out for more answers from this forum and in particular you!

As you pointed out I also believe that doctors tend to be conservative, the very reason I was reaching out to you and these forums.

It is not easy to find information on what I'm looking for. I can guarantee it's not in Spine-Health, an excellent overall web-site.

I will continue to move forward and I will continue to read this forum as well as the usual favorites.

[LeafUF]

I don't have any specific recommendations because im not familiar with your injury. But from my own experience I found that I could eventually return to exercises I was told not to do. And I have done so with no issues. It did take quite a while to get back to it though. I think I was two years removed from surgery before I felt comfortable again with my old routines and now im doing everything I did before though I stay mindful of abnormal pain.

[nggator]

I don't have any specific recommendations because im not familiar with your injury. But from my own experience I found that I could eventually return to exercises I was told not to do. And I have done so with no issues. It did take quite a while to get back to it though. I think I was two years removed from surgery before I felt comfortable again with my old routines and now im doing everything I did before though I stay mindful of abnormal pain.

I guess "patience" truly is a virtue.
You sound like quite a success story. It really is a difficult "injury" to deal with.
Thanks!

[Dreamliner]

I was not challenging your recommendations and thoughts, actually I was hoping you would reply, because I respect your opinions, methods, and practices. Yes, I am aware of your response 6 months ago. Now that I am ready to take it to another level, I was searching out for more answers from this forum and in particular you!

As you pointed out I also believe that doctors tend to be conservative, the very reason I was reaching out to you and these forums.

It is not easy to find information on what I'm looking for. I can guarantee it's not in Spine-Health, an excellent overall web-site.

I will continue to move forward and I will continue to read this forum as well as the usual favorites.

I'm sorry if it seemed like I snapped. Truth is, this thread is not about you. Rather, it touches on things that really irritate me.

If you google, say, 'deadlift + spinal fusion', you will find ample numbers of people who are deadlifting and squatting considerable amounts of weights after spinal fusion.

Offhand I'd say do whatever you want, as long as it does not cause pain or injury, but work up to it very gradually.

I do have a question about running though. Why do you want to do it ? Do you enjoy it ?

[halsgator]

Dreamliner, you speak with such authority. Putting down surgeons (8 to 10 yrs. prep). By what experience gives you the authority to tell others what medical advice is appropriate for those with serous and I mean serious back problems.?

[Dreamliner]

Dreamliner, you speak with such authority. Putting down surgeons (8 to 10 yrs. prep). By what experience gives you the authority to tell others what medical advice is appropriate for those with serous and I mean serious back problems.?

The knowledge as to the causes of back pain - and its cure - is public domain. The one thing you can fairly say, without coming off like a blowhard, is that I don't have any business preforming surgery.

[Dreamliner]

nggator -

Further thoughts:

While you can conceivably do anything you want, the really good news is that there is no such thing as an exercise that "you can't do without." That includes deadlifts and squats. Rack pulls, for example, will suffice for deadlifts. And unilateral leg exercises, ranging from Bulgarian Split Squats to various one-legged squats, will suffice for squats. and free weight advocates love to demonize the leg press, yet it's typically the quad exercise of choice for elite bodybuilders.

[el_lagarto]

The knowledge as to the causes of back pain - and its cure - is public domain. The one thing you can fairly say, without coming off like a blowhard, is that I don't have any business preforming surgery.



the CAUSES of back pain may be public knowledge, but the CAUSE of a single individual's back pain is, until phony hacks on message boards gain wider acceptance, best left up to professionals. particularly when you get to the point where surgery is considered.

but anyway. i agree with you on post surgery fitness, that surgeons and most licensed professionals are quite a bit conservative in their advice.

morgan and morgan: so what happened?

post fusion pt: i had back surgery a year ago, my surgeon recommended dead lifts and pistol squats and jogging. my back hurts and my new surgeon says i need a revision.

morgan and morgan(salivating): did ...he... put... those recommendations.... in ..................writing?

-----

morgan and morgan: so what happened?

post fusion pt: i had back surgery and some yahoo on my gator board said to do dead lifts, pistol squats, and jogging and now i need a revision.

morgan and morgan(yawning): dont listen to internet message board yahoos for medical advice. now GTFO.

if your livelihood is dependent on a license you dont stray too far from 'usual and customary'.

[Dreamliner]

the CAUSES of back pain may be public knowledge, but the CAUSE of a single individual's back pain is, until phony hacks on message boards gain wider acceptance, best left up to professionals. particularly when you get to the point where surgery is considered.

but anyway. i agree with you on post surgery fitness, that surgeons and most licensed professionals are quite a bit conservative in their advice.

morgan and morgan: so what happened?

post fusion pt: i had back surgery a year ago, my surgeon recommended dead lifts and pistol squats and jogging. my back hurts and my new surgeon says i need a revision.

morgan and morgan(salivating): did ...he... put... that.... in ..................writing?

-----

morgan and morgan: so what happened?

post fusion pt: i had back surgery and some yahoo on my gator board said to do dead lifts, pistol squats, and jogging and now i need a revision.

morgan and morgan(yawning): dont listen to internet message board yahoos for medical advice. now GTFO.

I'll leave it to others to huff and puff when doctors are criticized. I'll leave it to you to ascribe authority to a sleazebag like Morgan.

[el_lagarto]

I'll leave it to others to huff and puff when doctors are criticized. I'll leave it to you to ascribe authority to a sleazebag like Morgan.

alrighty then. cheers.

[Dreamliner]

*thumbs up*

[nggator]

nggator -

Further thoughts:

While you can conceivably do anything you want, the really good news is that there is no such thing as an exercise that "you can't do without." That includes deadlifts and squats. Rack pulls, for example, will suffice for deadlifts. And unilateral leg exercises, ranging from Bulgarian Split Squats to various one-legged squats, will suffice for squats. and free weight advocates love to demonize the leg press, yet it's typically the quad exercise of choice for elite bodybuilders.

Thanks a lot, these are the type of things I was looking for. I never thought of googling deadlift + spinal fusion; Much appreciation;
As far as jogging/running, I don't really want to do that, but I would like to be able to play tennis. It was suggested to just play doubles.

[Dreamliner]

Thanks a lot, these are the type of things I was looking for. I never thought of googling deadlift + spinal fusion; Much appreciation;
As far as jogging/running, I don't really want to do that, but I would like to be able to play tennis. It was suggested to just play doubles.

Here's where it's never a bad idea to dig in a bit when a doctor tells you not to do things. Questions like, 'Why would singles tennis, as opposed to doubles tennis, be a bad idea post-fusion surgery ?" My thing is that doctors are typically quite conservative. I do understand why they would be. But it is your perfect right to ask for clarification. Further, you can and probably should do your own research.

Obviously, singles is more strenuous than doubles. But doubles subject the body (and spine) to similar forces. You have the same shock impact, albeit slightly less of it, unless your partner sucks. And with your serving and stroking you have the same, relatively violent torquing actions.

[toon66]

Offhand I'd say that all these contraindications are a good reason to avoid spinal fusion surgery. Or maybe your doctor is full of crap and doesn't realize how resilient the human body is.

At various times in my life I've been told never to play tennis again (due to tennis elbow) and never to lift more than ten pounds overhead (due to mild scoliosis).

sorry for getting off topic but I currently have tennis elbow. I've had it about 3 months now and have not gone to a doctor though I had one session of accupuncture and a therapist friend told me to rest and ice it. How did you eventually alleviate the issue? I can't not workout for months on end.

[Dreamliner]

sorry for getting off topic but I currently have tennis elbow. I've had it about 3 months now and have not gone to a doctor though I had one session of accupuncture and a therapist friend told me to rest and ice it. How did you eventually alleviate the issue? I can't not workout for months on end.

This was many years ago. But as I recall, I rested until the swelling and acute pain subsided. Then I embarked on a forearm strengthening program. After little more than a couple of weeks of rest and rehab I was back on the court. Although I seem to recall working my way back to the sort of time I was logging on the court prior to the injury.

I also remember researching the proper mechanics for the backhand stroke and, reckoning that that was the cause, sought to refine my stroke. I know that I was meeting the ball late on the backhand and surmised that that had something to do with the lateral elbow/forearm pain.

[LeafUF]

sorry for getting off topic but I currently have tennis elbow. I've had it about 3 months now and have not gone to a doctor though I had one session of accupuncture and a therapist friend told me to rest and ice it. How did you eventually alleviate the issue? I can't not workout for months on end.

I have tendinitis in both forearms now that I actually think was caused when I moved earlier this year. At least that's when I noticed it. And unfortunately I think you do need to rest it or limit how much you aggravate it as much as possible. Icing and stretching helps and I think dream is right that eventually forearm strengthening should be done. I have read that some PTs will recommend a strengthening program right away but I would rest a little before diving into that.

[Dreamliner]

Yes, generally rest and perhaps light stretching prior to strengthening is the going advice. And I would throw in assessing your mechanics.

Interestingly, I transitioned, shortly thereafter into raquetball (remember when everybody played it ?). Raquetball was a natural fit for me. I was probably better at it than any other competitive sport I ever played.

But whereas that solved the tennis elbow problem, it eventually brought on shoulder problems. But that was likely because I played so much (simple overuse).

Nowadays they tell you to do rotator cuff exercises. But I'm not convinced that they are of much use. You can work on those tiny muscles all you want and the larger muscles will still overwhelm them. I'm more inclined to blame scapular instability and, again, sheer overuse. Back then I never did anything akin to rows. In those days all I did was pulldowns. And those, along with bench pressing, likely just fed into the problem.

[el_lagarto]

medial and lateral epicondylitis

i will grab a tennis ball or a couple of pairs of socks rolled up together and squeeze. squeeze your balls 1, 2, 3, 4 ,5 relax. rinse repeat.

i do it submax at 1st with no wrist or elbow or forearm rotation motion. i do it in elbow flexed position and elbow extended position.

as that gets less painful, i add intensity(squeeze harder) and add active elbow and wrist and forearm rotation motions.

i get it from golf and when i start to feel it , i do that throughout the day,, i drive for work so it gives me something to do..

it is quite painful to do these exercises at first.

i stretch too.

of course rest from the irritating activity is key, ice or better yet ice massage works good, and anti inflammatories for inflammatory conditions is a no brainer.

but thats just me. i dont recommend this for anyone else. it is known to cause heart attacks, cancer and lupus and will most likely make your arm fall off.

follow the advice of your doctor.

edit...i have always poo pooed braces and splints and so forth, but i got so desperate with my elbow on fire i bought the tendon compression strap at target and i am a believer. it allowed me to return to golf earlier, IMO.

[Dreamliner]

If I had followed the advice of my doctor(s) I would never have:

*played tennis again

*lifted more than ten pounds over my head

*deadlifted or squatted

*eaten saturated fats again

*virtually doubled my HDL cholesterol

Proper answer: listen to your doctor. Do your own research as well.

[96Gatorcise]

listen to what your Dr. is saying NOT what he is telling you. They are taught in medical school to diagnose the symptom and make you feel better. Very few will actually look for the root cause of the problem in the first place.

[toon66]

Thanks folks. The strap does work suprisingly well. I do stretch it but I wondered if this actually aggravated it. I actually got it from boxing so I have done that since the injury occured.

[Dreamliner]

We competitive types never like to hear this: but sometimes rest is the ONLY foolproof treatment. And how long do we have to rest ? As long as it takes. Often aches and pains do not resolve unless and until we begin to treat them as the injuries they are.

Not that I typically adhere to this sort of brilliant advice. But I'm a trainer. It's my job to hurt myself. And better myself than others. I'll take the lumps.

[Dreamliner]

Although I am coming off a ten-day layoff. It's about as hard for me to refrain from working out as it is for lots of people to muster the enthusiasm for working out.